C-7415 to C-7416 Transcriptions Friedman, Herbert A.

Transcription

C-7415 to C-7416 Transcriptions
Friedman, Herbert A. “A Half Century of Fire and Glory, Part 5:
American Jews.” 7 July 1989.
Herbert A. Friedman:
Um, I also will make a present to you of a
few copies of a bibliography I drew up for yesterday’s class,
which has nothing
on
oth
hin
i g to do with you,
you
u, uh,
uh about um, new
w books
bo
Israel that have come out in the
that
the
e last
last four or five years
yea
will help, if you
and I
yo
ou look
look at
at them,
them
th
em,
em
, get
ge you
you up to
to snuff,
snu
sn
uff, uh,
u
don’t know whether
wheth
her you’ve
you
ou’
ou
’ve
e read
d anything,
anyth
thing,
g, serious
ser
erio
er
i us book about
Israel in the
he last three
thr
h ee
e or
r four
r years,
years
rs, or not.
rs
not
o . But I got, one,
two, three, four,
four, five...Who
five
fi
ve...W
ve
.W
Who would
wou
ould
ou
ld like
lik
ike
e a copy
copy of this
th
his two-page
bibliography?
y?
? It’s entitled
ent
tit
tle
ed “Newer
“New
“N
ewer
ew
er Books
Book
ks on
n Israel.”
Israel.”
” [Indistinct
[
audience comments].
four
mme
ents]. You
Yo
ou have
h ve it
ha
it from
from yesterday.
yes
ste
ter
rday. I have
ha
more...Get these
e out
ut of the
th
he way
way
M: Did you see Conor Cruise
Crui
Cr
uise
ui
se O’Brien’s
O’Brien’
i ’s [1:00]
[1:
1:00
00]
00
] uh review of Tom
Friedman’s book?
Herbert A. Friedman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. He didn’t think much of
it...And I don’t know why.
Rabbi Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7415 to C-7416. American Jewish
Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
1
M: At least they, at least they picked somebody who was
knowledgeable to do the review.
Herbert A. Friedman: [laughs]
M: Has the book come out?
M: Yeah it just came out.
M: It was in
n the Wall
Wall
l Street
Str
reet Journal,
Jour
Jo
urna
al, about
abo
ab
out
t two
t o weeks
tw
w eks ago, three
we
weeks ago...
.
M: He’s gonna
na
a be at our
ou
ur book
bo
ook
k fair...
fai
air.
r ..
.
Fried
edman:
ed
n: Tom Friedman?
Fri
r ed
edma
man?
ma
n?
M: Mhmmm.
Herbert A. Friedman: I think he’s very...
very
Lisa: If you only had time to read one, which one would you
read?
2
Herbert A. Friedman: I don’t remember... Ask me afterwards,
Lisa. I’ll look back at it, I don’t have it in front of me now.
Lisa: Oh.
M: We heard him
hi
im in Israel actually...
actu
tual
al
lly
l ..
..
M: Friedman?
?
: Yeah,
Yea
ea
ah,
h we...
we...
.
M: I heard him
hi
im in Washington...
Wa
ash
hin
ngt
ton
n..
...
Fried
edman:
ed
n: Bob Wurtheimer.
Wurth
thei
th
eime
ei
mer
me
r. Gail?
Gail?
Gail: I’m here.
ere.
Herbert A. Friedman: Where? There you are.
are Ron Katz? There
T
you
are. Jack Levine I see. Susan?
Suzanne: Suzanne.
3
Herbert A. Friedman: Suzanne, sorry. Alan Brown I saw, there he
is. Lisa’s down there. [2:00] Ray Lavan. Lori Lavan. Paul
Churner’s here. Bill Goldberg’s here. Jeff Newman?
M: I took his place.
Herbert A. Friedman: Okay. Lana?
a?
? Did
Did I see Lana Smith? Rat- Mark
Rattner’s here.
ere. Nancy...
Nanc
Na
ncy.
nc
y...
y.
..
M: She’s got
t [unclear]
[unclea
ar]
r
Fr
riedman:
: Wow,
Wow
w, hope
ho
ope it’s
it’
t’s okay.
oka
ay.
. Steve
Ste
St
eve Schwartz?
Schw
war
Terry
Schwartz? Alan
lan
n Kluger?
? Okay.
Oka
k y.
F:
Change of curriculum.
curr
ric
icul
ulum
ul
u .
Herbert A. Friedman: Change
Chang
ge of curriculum,
cur
urricu
ulu
lum, that’s right,
righ
flexible. Uh
h [laughs],
[laughs] there’s a rule! If you’re not gonna
g
come,
you gotta tell somebody in the secretariat, “I don’t wanna hear
that guy anymore, I’m getting out of his class, I’m going to
4
somebody else’s class.” Perfectly legitimate, but you got to
inform, got to inform.
F: We do it now in retrospect?
Herbert A. Friedman: [laughs] Eh, no, don’t bother. Don’t
bother. [3:00]
00]
] Eh, otherwise it’s
it’
t s what
wh
he call in Hebrew
Hebr
He
hefkerut. Hefker,
efker, you know what
t hefker
hef
he
fker
r means?
M: Up for grabs.
rabs.
Fr
riedman:
n: He
Hefk
Hefker
fk
ker
r means
mea
ans “chaotic,”
“ch
chao
ch
aoti
ao
tic,
ti
c,”
c,
” means
m ans “anarchic.”
me
“an
Eh, if that’s
’s
s up for
r grabs,
gra
abs
s, okay.
okay
ok
ay. You
ay
You can’t
can
n’t live,
live, uh
h be,
b
uh you
should not live
liv
ve anarchically.
anarch
hic
ical
a ly
ly. You
You signed
sign
si
gned
gn
d up
up for something,
som
meth
you
wanna change
that’s
e your
you
ur mind,
mi
th
hat
at’s
’s okay.
oka
kay.
y. Change
Change your
yo
our mind,
mind, let them
know, they’ll
list, put
ll cross
cros
ss you
you off one
e man’s
ma
pu
ut you on another
man’s list. That’s systematic.
sys
yste
ys
tema
te
mati
ma
t c. That’s
That’
t’s call,
t’
call
ca
ll,
ll
, eh, that’s called
being a yekke.
ke. [Indistinct
t audience
audi
au
dien
di
ence
en
c comment]
com
omme
om
m nt] Um, yeah, right.
Now here’s
re’s what we’re gonna do,
do today is the last of a
series of five lectures, uh, which were called “A Half Century
of Fire and Glory,” and the fire begins at the beginning of that
half-century, in the 1930s, with the Holocaust, and then it go,
5
went, it went on uh through the three [4:00] uh crucial years of
1945 to 1948. Those three years are three most important years
in all of Jewish history. I mean all, four thousand years worth,
all! Never had three years like that, going from the Holocaust
to the founding of the State.
M: I miss that
hat
t class.
Fried
dma
man:
n: You
You missed
mis
isse
sed
se
d it?
it Well,
Well
We
ll,
ll
, you
you shouldn’t
sho
sh
ouldn’ have
missed it. [laughs]
[laug
ghs
hs] [Indistinct
[I
Indis
istinc
is
ct comments
comm
mments
ts from
fro
rom
ro
m audience]
audi
au
d ence Um, and
then the third
Wars
ird one was
was
a uh
uh “the
“t
Wars of Israel
Isr
srae
sr
el are One War,” and
that was all
l based upon
upo
pon
n the
the simple
s mp
si
mple
le premise
pre
remi
mise
mi
e that
tha
hat um we
we started
fighting, in
n the up building
bu
uil
ldi
ing
g of
of modern
mode
mo
der
de
rn Israel
Is
sra
ael
l in 1871.
187
71. 1871
there was an
n agricultural
agricultu
ura
ral
l village
vill
vi
llag
ll
age
ag
e established
esta
tabl
ta
lis
ish
hed called
calle
ed Mikveh
ed
M
Yisrael, and
d the
he
e first
fir
irst [5:00]
ir
[5:00
00]
00
] kid
kid was
was killed
killed there
the
here
re by a Bedouin
who came out
smart
t of Jaffa
Ja
aff
ffa
a and
a d shot him,
an
him
im, and that
t Bedouin
Bed
edouin was
w
‘cause he understood
nderstood
d that
tha
hat
t the
t e Jews
th
Jews were
wer
re arriving,
arri
ar
riving, and he tried
ri
his best to stop it. Eh, he
he couldn’t,
coul
co
uldn
ul
dn’t, but
dn
bu he killed a kid, and
uh that was like shooting a warning shot across the bow:
we’re
bo
gonna fight you guys. Well, 1989, so that’s why I say its 118
years, and all the wars that have been going on, since then, and
they’re not done obviously, and there are more wars to go, and
6
the Arabs are not in a hurry...Uh, what is the longest war that
the Arabs ever fought?
M: Independence war?
F: War of attrition...
M: I was here
re on Tuesday, it’s not
not
ot fair...
Fried
dma
man:
n Not
Not fair,
fair,
, you
you shut
shut
t up
up [laughs].
[la
l ug
ughs
h ]. [6:00]
[
The
Arabs fought
t the Christians
Chr
ris
i ti
tian
a s didn’t
didn
n’t
’ they?
the
hey? Right...How
he
Rig
ght
h ...How long’d
l
it
take ‘em to fight
fight the
the Christians?
Chri
Ch
rist
ri
stia
st
i ns
ns?
?
F: Long time.
e.
Friedma
ma
an: Two
Two
w hundred
ed years.
years. How many
ma
any popes,
popes anybody
know? How many
any kings of
of Europe,
Euro
Eu
r pe, how
how much
mu
uch gold,
gol
old,
d how many
man horses,
how much armor,
mor, how many big
big fortresses
for
ortr
tresse
tr
es did they build all over
Palestine? You saw one at Caesarea.
from
Caesarea Didn’t take very long,
l
an Arab point of view. It only took ‘em two hundred years to
kick ‘em in the ass and send ‘em back to Europe. Okay. So what’s
the rush to make peace with the Jews? Especially if the way the
7
Jews are talking today, they don’t wanna make peace with you. No
rush. [clicks tongue] Two hundred years? Still got a long time
to go. [7:00] So, we’ll drive a few more busses over the cliff.
I mean, you heard what happened yesterday.
M: No.
Herbert A. Friedman: Yes or no?
?
Audience members:
mbers:
: No...
No.
...
. Not
Not heard...
hea
eard
ea
rd...
.
Fr
riedman:
n: Yeah,
Yea
eah,
h well,
h,
wel
e l, I didn’t
did
idn’
n t see
se
ee the paper
pa
ape today
yet, but the
e story that
tha
at I got
go
ot out
out of it,
it
t, from
fr
rom
m somebody
somebo
ody on the
phone, was that
tha
at an Arab
Ara
ab um
u on
on a bus
bus from
fr m Tel
Tel Aviv, going
goi
to
Jerusalem, regular
regul
ul
lar bus,
bus, all
al
ll day
day long
long they
they go every
eve
very
ry fifteen
fif
minutes. Um,
, you know
kno
now
w when
w en you’re
wh
you’r
’re
’r
e coming up toward
to
owa
ward Jerusalem,
Jer
and on the left side that’s
tha
hat’
t’s
t’
s the
th village
vill
ill
llag
age
ag
e of Abu
Abu
b Ghosh, that Arab
village, and
d there’s that
t whole
whol
wh
ole
ol
e Yeshiva
Yeshiv
Ye
va complex up on the hill
on the left called Telz-Stone,
Telz-Stone named after some guy in
Cleveland, uh you know, eh, uh, [indistinct] Stone. Well right
at that point, on the right side of the road, there’s a deep
ravine that goes down, down, down. Arab got the wheel...an Arab
8
on the bus, as a passenger, got the wheel away from the drive,
[8:00] big fight over the wheel, wrenching, [grumbles], and over
the cliff goes the bus, boom, down about five hundred feet, and
uh the last figure I heard was fourteen killed, and like...What
does today’s paper say?
M: Fourteen killed.
ki
Fried
dma
man:
n: Okay,
Oka
kay,
y, and
and wounded?
wou
ounded
ed?
ed
?
F: Seven, five
ive to seven...
se
eve
v n.
...
M: There were
re
e forty-three
forty-th
hre
ee on
n the
the bus.
bus
us.
.
Fried
edman:
ed
n: Alright,
Alright
h , so fourteen
fourt
teen killed,
kill
led
ed, and thirty...
M: Twenty-seven
even injured,
injure
red,
re
d, two
two
w unaccounted
unaccount
nted
nt
ed for.
for
or.
Herbert A. Friedman: Alright,
Alright so,
so anybody who listens to me
hears me say, over and over and over again, that the intifada
will continue to escalate and escalate, and like any people that
feels it’s under occupation by some enemy occupier increases its
9
resistance and its acts of sabotage, and you gotta look forward
to Arabs blowing up bridges and blowing up power plants and
knocking a bus off a road, and a lot of busses off roads. [9:00]
I mean, just, put your mind back...I don’t wanna make a
comparison to the Nazis, but that’s the most recent...Forget
Nazis, Germans. The German army occupied Norway for four years,
how did the Norwegians
They
No
orw
r egians act? They
Th y made
mad
ade life hell for
r ‘em!
‘e
kept, act, sabotage, sabotage, sabotage,
they
sab
abotage, every damn thing
th
could think of to
to sabotage,
sabo
sa
bota
bo
tage
ta
ge,
ge
, to make
mak
ake life
life miserable
mis
iser
erab
er
abl
ab
le for the
Germans... Same thing
thing
same
th g in
in Belgium,
Belgi
ium
um,
, same
sa
thing
ng in
n Holland,
H llan
Ho
thing in France.
ance. The
e whole
who
hole
ho
l Maquis
Maqui
is underground
unde
derg
de
gro
roun
nd in France
Franc against
the Germans for
for four
ur years.
years
rs. What,
rs
W at
Wh
at, what
wh
hat makes
mak
kes
s us
us think
thin
nk we’re
gonna be immune
stones!
mu
une to it?
it?
? So
So they
th
hey start
sta
tart
rt out
ou
ut with
wit
ith
it
h sticks
s and
a
So now they’ll
uh
’ll
l throw busses
bus
usse
s s over
over the
the edge,
edg
ge,
e, and next
t time
ti
they’ll blow
blow up?
w up
p uh critical
critical
l installations.
i st
in
stal
alla
al
lati
la
tions. What
ti
Wha
at d’you
d’
You blow up a radio
radi
di
io station,
stat
st
a ion, you
ou blow
blow up a television
tel
lev
evision station,
you blow up a newspaper,
newspape
per
pe
r, you
you
o blow
blow up a bridge...I
bri
ridg
dge...I mean,
dg
mean it’s
totally inevitable!
vitable!
Okay, so the war’s going on,
on [10:00] so that was the
lecture on, all the wars are really just one war, and we got to,
we got to be patient, ‘cause they’re patient. They believe
time’s on their side and they’ll knock us out of the box, and
10
they’ll send us back to Europe where we belong. We don’t belong
in their territory, that’s what they say. “You European,
Ashkenazic Jews, you had a bad time under Hitler, so you get up
in heat and you want your own country. Well that’s tough, you
can’t take ours! Go, go. America likes you? Take a piece of New
Mexico from America. You wanna have a country? The British once
were ready to give
Uganda! What
g ve you Uganda.
gi
a. Go
Go take
ta
t the
th hell you
have to come
e here and stick your
r nose in...This is our country!”
That’s their
we’ll
r point
poi
int of
of view.
view
vi
ew. Our
ew
Our point
po t of view
vie
iew
w has
has to be,
b
fight the bastards
astar
rds to
o the
the
e end.
. Or
Or our
our point
ou
poi
po
int
t of
o view
vie
i w has
ha to be,
we’ll settle,
the
e, we’ll compromise,
c mp
co
mpro
r mi
mise, and
and that
th t was
was
s always [11:00]
[1
mainline Zionist
on
nist point
poi
oint
oi
nt of
f view,
view
vi
e , not
no the
the revisionist
re
evi
visi
si
ionist Zionist
Zi
point of view.
ew
w. The mainline
mai
inl
lin
ne Chaim
Chai
Ch
aim
ai
m Weizmann,
Wei
We
izm
man
nn,
, Theodore
Theodore
e Herzl,
H
Chaim Weizmann,
ann
n, David Ben-Gurion,
BenBe
n Gu
Guri
rion
ri
on, Abba
on
Abba Eban,
Eba
ban
n, down the
th line, all
the decades,
, has
as
s always
alw
lways been
lw
en half
hal
alf
f a cake’s
cak
ca
ke’s better
bet
tte
ter
r than none,
half a loaf.
. We need
ne
eed our
our
u independence.
indepen
ende
en
dence. We gotta,
de
go
ott
ta, we’ll,
we’ll we’ll
carve out our,
in
ur, a piece.
piece
ce. It’s
ce
It’ one land
land
d that
that has
has two peoples
peo
it. And that
t goes back to the
the beginning!
begi
be
ginnin
gi
ng! I mean Abraham
Abraha had two
sons, what were their names?
Ms: Jacob and Esau?
11
Herbert A. Friedman: Isaac...no!
M: ...Ishmael...
Herbert A. Friedman: Ishmael, and Isaac. Isaac and Ishmael.
Isaac became the father of the Hebrew people. Ishmael became the
father of the
each
he Arab
A ab people. What
Ar
Wha
hat
t do
d Arabs
Arabs and Jews call
ca
other today?
?
M: Cousins.
Fr
riedman:
n: Cousins.
Cou
ousi
sins
si
ns.
ns
. Really,
Real
Re
ally
al
y, it’s
it’s half-brothers,
hal
alf-brot
the
but
they, [12:00]
0] they say
say
y cousins.
cou
usi
ins
ns. And
And when
whe
en it’s
it’
t’s
t’
s nice, happy
ha
conversation
n it’s
it’s cousin,
cous
sin
in,
, it’s
it’s a friendly
fri
rien
endl
en
ly cousin.
cousin. And
An when it’s
not so nice it’s
s [affects
[af
affects gruff
af
gruf
gr
uff
uf
f voice]
voic
vo
ice]
ic
e] “Heh heh,
he
eh, you’re
you’r my
cousin, heh heh, I’ll
I’l
’ll
l cut
c t your goddamn
cu
god
oddamn throat.”
throa
at.”
” So, you
yo know,
you can have
um...
e any definition
def
fin
init
itio
it
ion
io
n of
f cousin
cousin
i that
that you
you want! And,
A
M: Can’t pick
ck your relatives.
relatives
Herbert A. Friedman: Can’t pick your relatives, exactly. So it’s
either gonna, it’s, it’s one land with two peoples. Can’t avoid
12
it. So you gotta decide, you wanna fight it out, or you wanna
settle it? And we have always said we want to settle it, but
saying is different form doing. So, we’re not really doing very
much at this point, and the whole people of Israel is split in
half. Uh, inside Israel you got 60% of the people who say let’s
make a territorial compromise with them. American Jewry, you got
your hawks and
d your doves. [13:00]
[13
13:0
00]
0 I hear, you know
w I hear these
violent conversations
versations in uh Des Moines,
Moi
Mo
ines, Iowa, “I don’t wanna
give up one inch!”
inch
h!” Well,
Wel
ell,
l, that’s
tha
hat’
t’s
t’
s fine,
fi , that’s
that
th
at’s
at
s okay.
oka
kay
y. What
Wha that
means...You wanna
a keep
ep fighting,
fig
ightin
ig
ng, so
o we better
bette
ter
r give
giv you a gun.
Alright.
t. So that’s,
that
at’s, uh,
at
uh
h, one,
e, all
l the
he
e wars
war
ars are one war. That
ar
was the third
and
rd
d lecture.
lectur
ure.
ur
e. The
The fourth
fou
o rt
rth
h one
on
ne was,
wa , oh,
oh, “The Building
Bu
the Strengthening
he
ening of
f Israel”
Isr
rae
el”
” over
ove
ver
r the
the past
pas
st forty
forty years.
yea
ars What an
absolutely incredible,
inc
credible, remarkable
rem
e ar
arka
kabl
ka
ble
bl
e thing,
thin
th
ing, has
in
has occurred,
occurr
red, all the
high-tech industry,
ndust
st
try,
, and all
al
ll the
the universities,
uni
un
iver
iver
ersities, and
and all the uh
growth of the
he GNP.
. We
We went
w nt through
we
throu
ough
ou
gh all that, and
and I put all the
figures on the board.
board
d. So,
So you
y u see, the
yo
the “Half
“Ha
Half
lf a Century of Fire
and Glory,” so, we’re coming
comi
mi
ing to
to the
th end
en
nd now, and that’s
that’ where
the glory is,
s in the growth of Israel [14:00] and the way it’s
developed so beautifully, and the last lecture which is today is
on the growth of the American Jewish community and what a
13
beautiful picture that is, and where we stand today, at this
moment, and what we have to do. So that’s today.
Let me make sure you understand the beginnings, which is
why I put these maps up. The United States started with the
landing at uh, of the pilgrims, the Puritans, at Plymouth Rock,
in Massachusetts, uh, in what year?
M: 1492?
Fried
dma
man:
n No!
No!
F: That’s when
he
en Columbus
Colum
umbu
um
bus
bu
s sailed
sail
sa
iled
il
e the
the ocean
oce
cean
an blue...
blu
ue...
e.
Fri
iedman: [laughs]
[la
laug
u hs
hs]
]
Audience members:
mbers: Sixteen
Six
ixte
teen hundreds...
te
hundr
red
eds.
s .. 1620.
Herbert A. Friedman: 1620’s
1620’
0’
’s right.
righ
ri
ght.
gh
t. Who
o said
said it? Thank you. 1620.
When did the
e first Jews land here?
F: Pretty soon after.
14
Herbert A. Friedman: Come on, can’t you read?!
M: 1654.
Herbert A. Friedman: 1654! [15:00] 1620, 1654. Thirty-four years
after the first white men are here in settlement form, English
Puritans settlers,
ttl
ler
e s, only thirty-four
thirty
ty-f
fou
o r years later, the
he first
f
handful of Jews there. In other words
words we were here from
fro the
beginning. We have
ha
ave settled
set
ettl
tled
tl
ed over
ove
ver
r three
th e hundred
hund
hu
ndre
nd
red
re
d years
yea
ye
ars in this
country. A very important
impo
im
p rt
rta
ant
t thing
thin
ng to
to know!
know!
w! Now
ow where
whe
here
he
r did we come
from? Where did those
thos
se first
fi
irs
r t Jews
s come
e from?
from
om? Those
om
T ose first
Th
firs
Jews...Forget
et
t Columbus,
Columb
mbus
mb
us,
us
, okay.
okay
ok
ay.
ay
. That’s
That
Th
at’s
at
s 1492,
149
492,
2,
, a number
number of
historians believe
be
elieve that
tha
at Columbus
Co
olu
umb
mbus
us was
was
s of
f Jewish
Jewi
wis
sh origin,
origi
in, possibly
a Marrano, or a secret
t Jew.
Jew
e . Five
Five of
of his
hi crew,
cre
cr
ew, as well
we
el as his
ell
interpreter,
to be Jews.
, were
wer
re known
kn
Jews
Je
ws. That’s
ws
Th
hat’s a fact.
fac
act.
t. The theory
about Columbus
bus himself
him
im
mse
self
lf being a Jew,
Jew
ew, let me give
giv
ve you the
th name of
a book, or the name of the
the authaut
th- the
the name
nam
ame
e of the book is
Christopher Columbus the author
aut
utho
hor
ho
r is [writing
[wr
rit
iting with marker]
marke
Salvador [16:00]
in
6:00] de Madariaga,
Madariaga University of Madrid.
Madrid It’s
I
paperback. Get it. It’s a, it’s called Christopher Columbus, and
it’s written by Professor Salvador de Madariaga, he’s now
Jewish, and he gives your full, four hundred pages of evidence
15
about Columbus being a Jew. It’s worth a, for a paperback book
for five bucks, eight bucks, whatever it is, it’s work having on
your shelf, and read one chapter and you get the feeling of it.
M: If that is true, then how come that hasn’t pushed in the
history books?
Herbert A. Friedman: It is pushh- well, well, history books!
b
Depends on who you’re
you
ou’r
’re
’r
e talking
talk
ta
lkin
lk
ing
in
g about.
abou
ab
out. People...that’s
ou
Peo
eopl
ple.
pl
e...
e.
..th
..
tha
th
at’s not
n
Peopl
le who
o are
are
e of higher
hig
igh
her
r intellectual
inte
tel
te
llec
ectu
ec
t al level all know
Christian! People
it. So when you say pushed
p sh
pu
hed
e in
in the
th
he history
hist
stor
st
ry books,
bo
ook
o s, what for the
eighth grade
e kids? Seventh
Sev
eve
enth
th grade
gra
r de kids,
kid
ds, third
thi
ird grade
grade kids
kid in
school? Who’s
’s
s gonna bother?
bo
oth
her
r? [clears
[cle
[c
lear
le
ars throat]
ar
thr
roa
at] Teachers
Teachers
s write
w
books, [17:00]
make
00]
] and publishers
pub
bli
lish
s er
rs publish
publ
pu
blis
bl
ish
is
h books,
bo
ook
oks
s, to sell
sel
ll ‘em,
ll
‘
money. And the competition,
compe
petition, if you
pe
you knew
kne
new what goes
goe
oes
s on in
i the
school system,
be
em, the
he
e competition
com
ompe
p tition for
for which books
boo
oks
s are
are gonna
gon
used, ‘cause
very
e you’re talking
talk
ta
lkin
lk
ing
in
g about,
ab
bout
t, in
in the
the millions,
mill
mi
l ions, it’s
it
heavy dough,
have to
, and the, the way,
way, and
and history
his
sto
tory books are pop
be popular for a school board to decide to use ‘em.
not go
‘em Let’s
Le
into the whole thing. In the third grade, the kids are not gonna
learn that Columbus was a Jew, but sophomore’s in college oughta
learn it. Sophomore’s in college in America are all idiots, uh,
16
‘cause what they’re thinking about is a few other things. The
gonads are working [audience laughter], and uh, the, the
football games are working...
M: That’s true in eighth grade, too.
Fri
riedman: [laughs] Yeah,
Ye
eah
a , that’s right. Uh,
Uh so by the
time you get
t to know this, you’re
you’r
’r
re a graduate student in
i uh Duke,
and oh, then
geez,
n you
u read
rea
ead
d Madariaga’s
Mada
Ma
dari
da
riag
ri
aga’
ag
a’s
a’
s book
ok and
and you
you say,
say, “Hey,
“H
that’s interesting,”
resting
ng,” [18:00]
ng
[18:0
:00] and
:0
and you’re
you
ou’re
e old
old
d enough
e ou
en
ough
g to understand
it. Did I give
ive you and
and
n answer?
ans
n we
wer? [Laughs]
[Laughs
hs] Sure,
hs
Sure
Su
e, yeah, okay.
ok
Um...Forget
or
rget about
ab
bou
out
t 1492.
14
492
92. Come
Co
ome down
dow
own
ow
n here
here to
to Latin
n America,
A
right here, there
there was,
wa
as,
, the
the
e old
old name
nam
ame of
of this
th
his
s city
city was
s Recife,
R
Recife, R E C I F E, Recife
Now,
Rec
ecif
i e in Brazil.
Bra
razi
zil.
zi
l. [Taps
[Ta
Tap
ps maps] Brazil.
Bra
what happened?
ed? Who
Who had
had Brazil
Brazi
z l first?
firs
fi
rst?
rs
t?
M: The Portuguese.
uguese.
Herbert A. Friedman: First.
First
Audience members: Spanish. Spanish.
17
Herbert A. Friedman: The Dutch!
Audience members: Oh...
Herbert A. Friedman: What was the biggest power in the 16th cenin the 15, uh 1600s?
M: The...Dutch.
tch.
Fried
dma
man:
n Dutch!
Dutch
ch!
ch
M: ...big mercantile...
er
rcantile
le..
le
...
..
Fri
iedman: Who
Who took
too
ook
oo
k the
the power
powe
po
wer away
we
awa
aw
ay from the
th Dutch
finally, and
d ruled
rul
ul
led the
the oceans
ocean
ans of the
an
the world?
world?
Ms: British...
... [19:00]
0]
Herbert A. Friedman: When? Well,
Well if you don’t know the date, by
what event? The Spanish Armada. The Spanish Armada, put the
British up on top, the British beat Spain, Spain goes off the
stage of history, Britain comes on the stage of history, who
18
beats the British in the 1600...Spanish Armada was when? 1555.
1555, the British take over. By a hundred years later, in the
1600s, the Dutch have taken over. You gotta know European
history! Jews are part of world history. The Dutch took over,
and when these Jews left Europe, under Spain, was the
Inquisition, it was tough, they were thrown out in what year?
Audience members:
mbers: 1492.
Fried
dma
man:
n Right.
Right
ht. So
ht
o call
call
l that
th
hat in
n round
r un
ro
und
d numbers
numb
1500.
During the 1500s the
e Jews
Jew
ew
ws were
we
looking
looking
ng for
for refuge
ref
e uge everywhere.
ever
[20:00] Okay.
y. They came
cam
ame
e to a hospitable,
hos
ospi
os
pita
pi
abl
ble,
e, Dutch
Dut
utch
ch controlled,
contr
rol
South
American coast.
the
as
st. When
n the
the
e Dutch
Dut
tch lost
los
ost
t out
out
t to
to the
th
he Portuguese,
Portu
ugu
Portuguese are
e like the
th
he Spanish,
S an
Sp
anis
ish
is
h, the
the Portuguese
Por
rtu
tug
guese bring
bri
in in the
ing
Inquisition here
re
e once
onc
nce more. Then
nc
Then the
the Jews
Jews have
e to
to beat it again.
This was first
rst Dutch,
Dut
tch
ch, this
t is coast,
th
coast
st, then it became
st
be
eca
ame Portuguese.
Portu
When it became
ame Portuguese,
Portugu
gues
gu
ese,
es
e, the
h Jews
Jews go wandering
wan
ande
dering again,
de
again to get
away from the
he Inquisition, and
and they
the
hey go
o north,
north, and they come up
here, to where?
ere?
M: Curacao?
19
M: New Amsterdam.
Herbert A. Friedman: Dutch! Once again, they go looking for the
Dutch, who are their most comfortable, uh partner, or uh,
sovereignty under...Who takes care of Israel’s interests in
Moscow today?
Audience members:
mbers: The Dutch.
Fried
dma
man:
n The
The Dutch.
Dutch
h. I mean,
mean,
me
, it’s
it’s
’s all
ll natural,
natur
logical, consistent.
nsistent.
. Of
f all
a l the countries
al
countr
trie
tr
es on
n the face of this
earth, Israel
el
l trusts
ts the
the
he Dutch,
Dut
utch
c , [21:00]
[21:
[2
:00
00]
] and
an
nd the
th Dutch
Dutc
ch sit there
in their embassy
Jews
ba
assy in Moscow
Mo
osc
cow
w handing
han
andi
ding
di
ng out
out the
th
he visas
vi
isas to Russian
Ru
to get ‘em out
t of Russia.
Russ
sia
ia.
. No papers,
pap
aper
ers,
er
s, no
no receipts,
rec
re
ceipts, no
no nothing.
n
The drawer is full
the
fu
ull of
of cash,
cash
h, and
and the
the Dutch
Dut
Du
tch officials
offi
ici
cial
als open
al
op
drawer, hand
d the cash
cas
ash
h to
t the Jews,
Jew
ews,
ew
s and they move.
s,
mo
ove
ve. Costs
Cost a lot of
dough to get
t out of Russia.
Russ
Ru
ssia
ss
ia.
ia
. We
W put
put
t the
the dough
dou
ough
gh there, and
an we trust
the Dutch to
o administer it.
it
t.
So they
That
y come up here to New Amsterdam.
Amsterdam New Amsterdam.
Amster
was the name of New York. York is what kind of a name?
Audience members: English. British.
20
Herbert A. Friedman: So, when the British threw out the Dutch,
they changed the name of the town, but I think New Amsterdam is
a classier name, I wish that were its name today. Uh...[laughs]
Anyway, you got it. [22:00] [Indistinct audience comment]. Here
it was, look at this thing down here. The Jews of Brazil fled,
after the reconquest
eco
onq
n uest of the Brazil
Braz
Br
zil
i by
by the Portuguese
se in
i 1654,
1654. So they
How
ey come up to New Amsterdam,
Ams
ste
terdam, they’re on a ship.
s
many of them
m are
e there?
the
here
re?
re
? Twenty-one.
Twen
Tw
enty
en
ty-o
ty
-one
-o
ne. And
ne
And a little
litt
li
ttle
tt
le dinky,
dinky tiny,
ship, and it’s
t’s cold
col
old
d up there,
the
here, way
he
way up
up nrth,
nrt
rth
rt
h, compared
com
o pa
pare
r d to down
there, and it’s in the
the
h winter,
win
i te
ter, and
and
n who
ho is
s the
th
he governor of New
Amsterdam?
Audience members:
mbe
ers: Peter
er Stuyvesant.
Stu
uyv
yves
es
san
ant
t.
Friedma
ma
an: Right,
Rig
i ht, I don’t
don’
do
n t know why
n’
y you
you all know
k
that,
but you all always do.
do. [laughs]
[la
lau
ughs
h ] Somehow
Someho
how
ho
w or other,
other, this story of
peg-leg Pete
e got...
F: There used to be a children’s book [Friedman
laughs]...[unclear] New York. Did anyone ever read that, This is
New York? I remember Peter Stuyvesant from that...
21
Herbert A. Friedman: Alright. So what did Peter Stuyvesant say,
even though he was Dutch?
M: He wrote back to the Dutch and said, “Can I throw these
people out?”
Herbert A. Friedman: No, he didn’t.
didn
dn’t
dn
’t. He didn’t ask. He just said,
“No dice. [23:00]
23:00
0] You
You don’t
don’
do
n’t
n’
t land.”
land
la
nd.”
nd
.” And
nd they
the
hey
y said,
said
sa
id, “Come
id
“Com on! We
rite to the
he board
boa
oard of
oa
of directors
dire
rector
ors of the
or
he Dutch West
are gonna write
Indies Company
any (parenthesis:
(pare
ent
n he
hesi
s s: on which
w ich
wh
h board
bo
oar
ard there
t ere are seven
th
Jews, close parenthesis)
we’re
gonna
parenthe
hesi
he
sis)
si
s) [laughs]
[la
laug
u hs
hs]
] and
an
nd we’re
we’r
we
’r
re gonna,
go
we’
ask the board,
to
rd
d, uh, back,
d,
bac
ck,
, in
in Amsterdam,
Amst
Am
ster
st
erda
er
dam
da
m, eh
h for
for permission
permis
ssi
land.” He said,
And
aid
d, “You’re
“You’r
re welcome,
w lc
we
lcom
ome
om
e, stay
sta
tay
y on
n your
your damn boat.”
boa
they stayed on the
it
the boat
boat all
al
ll winter
wi
int
nter
er in
in the
the harbor,
harb
bor
or, ‘cause
‘cau
takes a month
a
th and
d a half
hal for a letter
let
etter to get
t across,
acr
cross, for
f
letter to get
et back, so it
it was
was a long
long tough
tou
ough
gh winter.
win
i ter. And in the
spring the letter came back
bac
ck from
from the
the Dutch
Dut
utch West Indies Company
to Peter Stuyvesant,
uyvesant instructing him to allow them to land, and
of course giving him control over the local conditions of their
landing. So, he gives, uh, conditions, which is: You shall not
be allowed to bear arms; you shall not be allowed to, uh, be a
22
public burden, [24:00] you must take care of your own. That
principle of Jews taking care of their own was put down in
writing by Peter Stuyvesant, so they don’t become a public, a
burden on public welfare! That’s been the Jewish tradition from
the beginning. He knew it. Eh, you shall not have a cemetery uh
to bury your dead. I don’t know what they were supposed to do,
throw ‘em in
you
n the
the
h ocean. And so he
he had
ha a lot of stuff...And,
stuff
ff..
shall not become
ecome part of the militia
mil
il
lit
iti
ia to defend the settlement.
set
In other words,
rds, you
you don’t
don’
do
n’t
n’
t have
have equal
equ
qual rights
rig
ight
hts
ht
s with
with every citizen.
The right of
No,
f every
eve
ery citizen
cit
iti
it
izen
en is a duty
duty
ty to
o protect
prot
otec
ot
e t his
h s town.
hi
to
you may not share in
n that.
tha
hat.
ha
t
Uh? So it
Uh, we
it was a tough
tough
gh beginning.
beg
e in
inni
ning
ni
g. Um,
Um but
but never mind.
mi
made it. I mean,
and
me
ean, you
u know...we
kno
ow.
...we
we got,
got
ot,
, eh,
eh,
, uh
uh Melvin
Me
elvin Douglas,
Do
oug
Eddie Cantor,
r, and look
k at
at us,
us, Sam
Sam Goldwin,
Gold
Go
ldwi
ld
in,
n, look at all the
people we have,
[25:00]
ave, we have
have other
ot
the
her the
the three
thre
th
ree hundred
re
hundre
ed years.
ye
Um, so that’s
s the
the beginning
beginnin
ng of
o it all. Now,
Now
ow, the in
ow
i between
is, yes, as they came
came
e up from
fro
r m South
South
th America,
Amer
Am
eric
er
ica,
ic
a, and as they
th
over from Europe
urope after Columbus
Col
ol
lum
umbu
bus
bu
s in all
l the
the many ships which the
Spanish and the British sent,
sent they landed,
landed they settled
settle all the
way through the Caribbean. And you had very early settlements in
all of these, in Martinique, in the Barbados, in Curacao, in, in
Kingston, uh, uh, whatchamacallit, the Bahamas, all the way
23
through the place. What’s called here Hispaniola, that’s, half
of it is Haiti and the other half is the Dominican Republic. Uh,
et cetera.
So that’s the beginning. Alright, now, I gave you five
chapters to read in the book, uh, uh of called Heaven and Hope,
how many of you had a chance to read some of it at least? Okay.
[26:00] Um...I’m
uh,
..I
I’m gonna put an
n outline
ou
utl
t in
ine here on the board,
boar
bo
just of the...’cause
gonna
...’cause we can’t possibly
po
ossi
ibly cover it all. I’m
I
put an outline
ine of
of the
the chapters.
chap
ch
apte
ap
ters
te
rs.
rs
. Chapter
Chapte
Ch
ter
te
r 11,
11 [writing
[wri
[w
rit
ri
ting with
w
marker] is entitled
entit
tle
led
d “Dusk
“Du
“D
usk
k to Darkness.”
Dar
ark
knes
ess.”
” We’re
We’r
’re
e talking
talk
ta
l ing about the
American Jewish
wish community,
comm
mun
u it
ty,
y and
and that
tha
h t covers
cove
co
ers a period of time from
1930 to 1945.
and
5. Now look
look at
t the
the dates,
date
da
tes,
te
, and
and look
loo
ook
k at the
e title,
t
you tell me what
what that
tha
at uh,
uh
h, what
wh
hat that
tha
hat
t would
wou
uld
d have
hav
ha
ve covered.
cover
red What
does it mean
n “dusk
“dusk to darkness”?
dark
da
r ne
ness
s ”?
ss
What
What was
was happening
happenin
ng in
i 1930?
Audience members:
mbers: The
The rise
rise of Hitler.
Hit
itle
l r. Depression...
Depress
s io
ion
n...
Herbert A. Friedman: Depression
Depre
ess
ssio
ion
io
n is one
e thing.
thing.
M: Rise of Hitler.
Herbert A. Friedman: Rise of Hitler. [27:00]
24
M: And the Holocaust, which was the
darkest...
Herbert A. Friedman: Not yet, 1930. Look at that, look at that,
darkness at the end, was 1945. Okay. What else was going on in
America? Depression.
M: Father Coughlin.
oughlin.
Fried
dma
man:
n Father
Fathe
her Coughlin!
he
Co
oug
ugh
hlin
in! Anybody
Any
An
ybod
ody
od
y remember
reme
re
m mber that
name? A priest
est from Detroit,
D tr
De
troi
o t, broadcasting
bro
oad
a cast
stin
st
ng every
ev
ver
e y Sunday,
Sunday on the
radio, against
ns
st the Jews;
Jew
ews
s; kill
kil
ill
l the
the Jews;
Je
ews
ws;
; the
th
he Jews
Je
are
e our...He
o
was paraphrasing
as
sing Hitler,
Hit
tle
er,
, he
he had,
had
ha
d, he
he had
had
d the
the Jews
Jews in ths
th country
really scared.
lot of
ed.
. Father Coughlin,
Coug
Co
u hl
hlin
in, rise
in
rise of
of anti-Semitism,
ant
an
ti-Semiti
is
ism,
people were listening
list
st
tenin
ing to him.
in
him
i . Go ahead,
ahe
head
ad, what else?
ad
els
lse?
e?
F: Ford
Herbert A. Friedman: What?
F: I said you had Henry Ford and…
25
Herbert A. Friedman: Henry Ford.
F:
...Joe Kennedy...
M: Charles Lindbergh.
Fri
riedman: Joe Kennedy.
Kenne
nedy
dy
y. Charles
Ch
Lindbergh.
Lindberg
gh.
M: ...what America
Ameri
ica First
Fir
irst
st that...
tha
hat.
t...
t.
..
: America
Ame
meri
me
r ca First.
Fir
rst
s . I mean,
me
ean
an, if
i we, we don’t have
to go anymore.
re
e. [28:00]
[28:0
:00]
:0
0] You
You see
see
e the
the trend.
tre
rend
nd. I mean,
nd
me
the
th
he Jews of
the United States
St
tates were
we
ere
e really
rea
all
ly scared
scar
sc
ared
ar
ed out
ou
ut of
f their
their wits
wi
its at that
period. They,
y, they, uh,
uh
h, they
t ey
th
y couldn’t
cou
ould
ldn’
ld
n’t
n’
t any
an
ny more
more focus
focu
us on
o what to
do about the
e Holocaust,
Hol
ol
locau
aust, they
au
th
hey were
wer
ere
er
e scared
scar
sc
ared about
ar
t themselves.
the
hemsel
That’s the excuse that
that they make,
make
ke, that is made
ke
ma
ade
e in
in their
thei name,
for their inactivity
nactivity during
dur
urin
ing
in
g that
that
t period.
perio
io
od. Is
Is it
i legit? Yeah, it’s
legit. Um, one thing also that
that didn’t get
that you
you forgot,
for
rgot,
go
listed here, the problems in Palestine.
look
Palestine Palestine didn’t
didn
like a very secure place. What was happening in these years in
Palestine?
26
M: Massacre in Hebron.
Herbert A. Friedman: Massacre in Hebron was 1929. Uh, the riots
of 1936, the British Peel Commission of 1939, the white paper
forbidding Jews to enter. Uh, ’39, the year the war started,
[29:00] the British issued a white paper, uh, cutting off
immigration and
Jews
an
nd cutting of land
lan
and
d purchases.
p rc
pu
rchases. Couldn’t
t buy,
bu
weren’t allowed
in
owed to buy land, Jews
Jew
ws are not allowed to come
c
except on certificates,
ertif
fic
icat
ates
at
es,
es
, fifteen
fift
fi
ftee
ft
een
ee
n hundred
hundre
hu
red
re
d a month,
mont
mo
nth,
nt
h, a month,
mon
fifteen hundred.
in,
dred. Eighteen
Eight
hte
ht
een
n thousand
thou
usa
san
nd people
peopl
ple
pl
e a year
y ar can come
ye
c
and you got hundreds
s of
f thousands
t ou
th
ousand
ds of people,
peo
opl
ple,
, uh Jews in
i Europe
looking for refuge.
refuge.
. Tough
Tou
To
ugh
h period!
peri
pe
r od
od!
!
So, we’re
’r
re beginning
begin
nni
ing
g from
fro
om kind
kind of
of behind
beh
hind
nd the goal
goa
al line here,
talking about
ut the growth
grow
wth of
f the
the American
Amer
Am
eric
er
ican
ic
n Jewish
Jewish community.
com
mmun
Compare the American
years
Amer
rican
an Jewish
h community
comm
co
mmun
mm
unit
un
ity
it
y today
today with
wi
ith uh
uh sixty
si
ago. It’s night
12,
ight and
an
nd day!
day Okay. The
The next chapter
chap
pte
er was Chapter
Ch
in his book,
, and it’s
s called
call
ca
lled
ll
e [writing
[writ
iti
it
ing
g with
with marker]
marker]
“Tercentenary:
ry: 1654-1954.”
” [30:00]
[30
30:0
:00]
:0
0] Three
Thr
ree
ee hundred years,
years three
hundred years,
rs of Jewish life.
life This is what Jewish life
lif looked
like up to 1945. What did it look like by the time of, by 1954
in America, when that event was celebrated? What was the, what
27
was the highlight point of that celebration? He tells you, if
you remember, in, in, uh...The highlight...Well, don’t bother...
M: The President came to talk to us.
Herbert A. Friedman: That’s correct. The President of the United
States came to
o the final, culminating,
culm
lmin
in
nat
a in
ing, great banquet
et that
t
had a
couple thousand
sand people. Who was the
the President in ’54?
th
Audience members:
mbers:
: Eisenhower.
Eis
sen
enho
ower.
Fr
riedman:
n: Eisenhower.
Eis
isen
enho
en
howe
ho
w r.
F: Came to what
wha
at banquet?
banque
et? I’m
’m sorry...
sor
orry
ry...
ry
.
Friedma
ma
an: The
The
h closing
ng banquet
banquet of the
th
he tercentenary
tercen
celebration.
. It’s held
ld in
in some
s me big
so
big hotel
hot
tel in
in New
N w York, and there
Ne
were a couple
le thousand people,
peo
opl
ple,
e, and
and the
e President
President comes,
comes and he
said one very
ry famous sentence.
sentence [31:00] He said,
said “Thank you for
the honor you give me in allowing me to share your celebration
with you.” And he really felt honored. He really felt kinda
overawed, that of all the people. They could have invited the
28
Prime Minister of Israel to come to that closing banquet. They
could have invited all Nobel Prize, Jewish Nobel Prize winners,
I mean, hell, they could have done anything they wanted. Three
hundred anniversary celebration. There’s...probably nowhere ever
back in Jewish history...I mean, do you think there was a three
hundredth celebration in Babylonia after the Jews were there for
the first three
were the
hre
ee hundred years?
s? Or
Or was
wa there after they
th
first three hundred years in Spain?
Spa
ain
in?
? Do you think there was a
celebration?
? Or in Poland,
Pol
olan
and,
an
d, or
or any
any place?
plac
ace?
ac
e?
M: Yeah, they
ey have pogrom
pog
o ro
rom
m in Poland,
Pol
land, so...
so...
.
Fr
riedman:
: Yeah,
Yea
ah,
, right.
rig
ight
ht. That
ht
Tha
Th
at was
wa
as a good celebration.
ce
ele
So, here in America
Am
merica is
s the
the
h first
fir
irst
st time
tim
ime
e in
n all
all of Jewish
Jew
wi
wish
history
that you’ve lived
hundred
live
ve
ed three
th
hund
ndre
nd
red
re
d years
year
ye
ars
ar
s in
in a country
cou
unt
ntry
ry and nobody
chopped your
r head
d off!
off! [32:00] Incredible!
Inc
ncredible! So
So he said, “This is
a great honor,
or, and you’ve
you
ou’v
ou
’ve
’v
e invited
i vi
in
ited
d me to
to share
shar
sh
are it with you, and I
ar
thank you for
humble,
or it.” And he said
said it
it in his
his typical simple,
simpl
quiet, way.
Well, what was the, what was, what was it like, there in
the tercentenary year, 1954? Who wants to give me some notes of
29
what you think um...Jewish condition in America was at that
point?
M: [inaudible] was up but McCarthy was around.
Herbert A. Friedman: [laughs] You said, McCarthy was around.
McCarthy was
s the
the
h senator from
m what
wh
hat
a state?
state?
Audience members:
mbers
s: Wisconsin.
Wis
isco
cons
co
nsin
ns
in.
in
. Wisconsin.
Wisc
Wi
sco
sc
onsi
in.
: Wisconsin.
Wis
sco
c ns
nsin. Where’s
W ere’
Wh
e’s Milwaukee?
e’
Milw
Mi
wau
a kee?
Ms: In Wisconsin.
on
nsin.
Fried
edman:
ed
n: I was the
he rabbi
rab
abbi
bi in
in Milwaukee,
Milwau
uke
kee,
e, Wisconsin,
Wis
in
nineteen hundred
ndred and
and fifty-two,
fif
i ty-two,
, fifty-two!
fi
Mr.
Mr. McCarthy’s
McCarth
running for reelection.
what
else
reelection
on. So I take
on
take
k him
hi on,
on, [mumbles]
[m
wh
would I do?!
! [chuckles] [33:00]
[3
33:
3:00
00]
00
] So,
So so
o it
it starts. Milwaukee
Milw
Journal, front
ont page,
page every Saturday morning.
morning “What ‘the
‘th rabbi,’”
after a while they stopped using my name, “the rabbi, “ “what
the rabbi said about McCarthy,” see.
30
M: You’re writing a new mission on how you were just rabbi.
Herbert A. Friedman: Yeah, right, exactly. “Rabbi calls McCarthy
stormtrooper.” I called him a fascist, stormtrooper. Then I had
to figure, what am I gonna say next week? [audience laughter]
Um, “Rabbi says McCarthy does not use rubber truncheons like the
Nazis did, he uses
Every
u es true American
us
Americ
ican
n slippery
sli
lippery elm club.”
.” Yeah.
Y
which way I could think of, of
There
f slamming
sla
lamming that guy, I did.
di
was one other
er fellow
fe
ell
llow
ow who
who helped
hel
elpe
ped
pe
d me;
me was
was an editor,
edi
dito
tor
to
r, not Jewish,
of the Madison
son Capital
Capi
Ca
pita
pi
al Times
Ti
imes newspaper,
news
ne
wspa
aper,
, and
and
d uh,
uh,
, he
he and I
circulated a petition
petitio
on throughout
thro
th
r ug
ughout
t the state
sta
ate of
of Colorado,
Colorado [34:00]
um, uh state
e of Wisconsin,
Wisc
scon
sc
onsi
on
sin
n, um,
n,
um,
m getting
get
etti
ing signatures
sig
gna
natu
tures of
tu
f voters
v
against McCarty,
ar
rty, a protest
pro
ote
est
t petition,
pet
etit
itio
it
ion,
io
n, and
an
nd we
e got
got a hundred
hu
und
thousand names,
uh
mes
s, a big roll.
roll
ro
l . And
And one
one day,
da
uh three guys
guys walk in
the temple, I mean
So what
me
ean here
here I’m
I’
’m the
the rabbi
rabb
ra
bbi of Temple
bb
Templ
le Emanuel.
Em
manue
am I doin’, doin’ all
uh
all this
t is stuff,
th
stuff
ff, which is another
ff
ano
oth
ther chapter,
cha
I’ll tell you
ou in a minute.
min
inut
in
ute.
ut
e. And
d they
they say,
sa
ay, uh
uh “We’re
“ e’re from
“W
fro the
sheriff’s office
ffice in Ozaukee
Ozauke
ke
ee County,
Coun
Co
unty
un
ty, and
ty
an
nd we came here to
t
requisition that,
I
that uh,
uh roll that you got,
got with signatures.
signatur
said, “Yeah, you got a court order?” “We’re from the sheriff’s
office, we told ya!” I say, “You got a court order?” Silence. I
say, “Now, you do me a favor. This conversation is over. You get
31
the hell out of here. Next time you come in here, you come in
with some legal right to do so [35:00] or you call me up, you
ask me for an appointment, you tell me what you wanna talk to me
about, and I’ll decide if we’re gonna make an appointment or
not. Out!” These three guys looked at each other, and I could
see what’s going through their heads, right at that second, you
know. What they’re
the
ey’
y re thinking is,
is “Shall
“ ha
“S
hall we beat the guy
guy to
pieces, or shall we leave?” And
d I could feel it! And I’m
I
thinking to myself,
myse
elf
lf,
, Oh boy!
boy
oy! Okay,
Okay
Ok
ay, they
ay
ey left.
lef
eft.
t.
Uh, the
of
e next
nex
xt day,
y, we
e took
k that
that
t roll
ll out
ut of
f the
t e state
th
st
Wisconsin, we put it
in
t in
n a vault
va
i Continental
Con
ontine
on
nent
ne
tal
a Bank in Chicago,
so that they
y couldn’t
couldn’
n’t
n’
t have
have
ha
ve any
any
n jurisdiction
jur
uris
sdi
dict
ctio
ct
io
on to get it,
it, no court
order was gonna
on
nna help
p anymore.
any
ymo
ore
e. And
And we
e continued
co
ont
tin
nue
ed to beat
be
eat away him,
and we wounded
ded
d him. And
An
nd we
w really
rea
eall
lly
ll
y did,
did, I mean,
mean, he won
won the
election, but
ut we
e hurt
hur
urt him really
ur
real
re
ally
al
ly very
ver
ery
y badly
badly because
be
eca
caus
use that
us
th
television commentator
then in
days,
um...
comment
tat
ator
or that was
s alive
al
in those
th
da
[36:00]
Audience members:
mbers: Murrow...
Murrow
Herbert A. Friedman: Murrow! Edward R. Murrow, that’s right, uh,
took him on. He heard what we had done, he came talked to us
32
about it, and uh then he said, “I’ll take him on.” And then he
did, and then the, the army had the hearings that were
televised, and there was an army appointed prosecutor by the
name of Welch and, uh, that, that was all downhill for McCarthy
after that.
Meanwhile, while all this is goin’ on, president of the
temple is having
know,
avi
ving
n these fits, uh,
uh,
, with
wit
ith me, uh about,
, “You
“Y
you, religion
you
on shouldn’t mix with
th
h politics.” I said, “Hey,
“H
wanna read Isaiah?
Isaia
ah? Come
Com
ome
e on.
on Read
Read the
the Bible.
Bib
ible
le. Don’t
le
Don’
Do
n’t
n’
t tell me about
religion and
d politics.
polit
itics.
it
s. Uh,
h, you
u know
know
w anything
anyt
yth
yt
hing
ng about
abo
bout
bo
u the Jewish
prophets?” et cetera.
cetera
a. So
o he
e says,
says
s, “Don’t
“Don
on’t
on
t bother
bot
the
h r me with
wit that
stuff, we’re
“Well,
e losing
g members
memb
me
mber
ers
er
s right
r gh
ri
ght
t and
an
nd left.”
left
le
ft
t.”
” And
And I said,
sai
don’t bother
month
r me with
h that
tha
at stuff.
st
tuf
uff
f. You
You
u give
gi
ive
e me
me a list every
ev
[37:00] of the
with
e number of members
mem
em
mbe
bers
rs we
we lost
lo t who
who don’t agree
agr
what I’m doing,
dues were,
ing, and
d how much
ch dough,
dou
ough
gh, I mean
gh
mean what
wha
at their
th
so how much dough
I’m
h are
are we
w losing
g in the temple...
templ
le..
.. I mean,
mea
going to continue
ntinue to work
wor
ork
k in
i the
the free
free realm
real
re
alm
al
m of bringing
bringin Jewish
ethics against
But I
nst Jew- uh, uh
h evil.
evi
vil.
l. And
And that
tha
hat senator’s evil.
ev
have no right
ht to cause you in the temple to lose money,
money no right
to do that. You just tell me how much dough we lost this month,
I’ll replace it. How ‘bout that? I don’t care about the names,
you don’t have to reveal the names to me. We lost six members
33
this month, it was three thousand bucks worth of dues that we
lost, and I will go out and I will get three thousands dollars’
worth of more members, and you shut up.” [audience laughter]
“Don’t bother me anymore. Just give me numbers every month,
that’s all.” [laughs] So you know, I say to myself, “The guys
gonna fire me, and that’s fine.” ‘Cause I never had a contract.
[38:00] I don’t
in
on’
’t have a contract
contrac
act
t to
t this
this day. I don’t
’t believe
b
contracts. You gotta have freedom.
me,
freedo
do
om. So I said, he’ll fire
fi
fire me, what
to
at the
th
he hell.
hell
he
ll.
ll
. I’ll
I’ll go
go move
mo
to Madison,
Madi
Ma
diso
di
son,
so
n, and I’ll
I
continue to work,
work
k, and
d then
then
en I’ll
I’l
ll figure
figu
gure out
out how
how
o to
to feed my wife
and kids. It’s
t’s not his
his
i problem,
pro
r bl
blem, it’s
i ’s my
it
my problem.
prob
pr
ble
l m. And I lived all
my life that
You
t way. Freedom.
Free
Fr
eedo
ee
dom
m. You
m.
You
o have
hav
ave to say
say
y what
wha
hat you believe.
be
have to do what
wh
hat you believe.
be
eli
iev
ve. That’s
Tha
hat’
t’s the
t’
the
e automatic
auto
tom
to
matic mark
ma
ark of a
leader. And you
it.
yo
ou take risks,
ris
isks
k , you
you take
take risks.
ris
sks
ks. No doubt
doub
bt about
bt
a
And I mean heavy,
money
heavy
vy
y, dough,
do
mon
oney
on
ey risks.
ris
isk
ks But
ks.
But your
r independence
ind
ndepen
gives you the
he freedom
free
edo
dom
m to
t pursue
e the
th truth as
s you
you see it.
i
Now how
from
w in the hell
hell did
did
i we get
t off
of
ff on that?
tha
h t? Oh! Oh,
O
16...1952, yes, right. Uh,
and
h okay.
oka
kay.
y. So
So that’s
th
hat
at’s the tercentenary
tercent
the celebration,
tion uh,
uh uh grew.
grew What else was happening in those
years, [39:00] 1954, what else was going on?
F: The baby boom.
34
Herbert A. Friedman: The baby boom. That was the, the period of
the great, the period of the building of the great temples of
America. Everybody was building a five million dollar temple or
synagogue, you know in the ‘50s. It was booming. Religious life
was booming...
M: Suburbia...
...
Fried
dma
man:
n What?
What?
t?
M: Suburbia.
.
Fri
iedman: Suburbia.
Sub
ubur
u bi
bia.
a Uh,
Uh,
h Jews
Jew
ews were
wer
we
re moving
g up the
economic ladder.
dder.
r.
. They
The
hey were scattering,
he
sca
catt
ca
tter
tt
eri
er
ing, they were
ing,
we
ere decentralizing,
decen
you had to build community
com
ommu
muni
mu
n ty centers
cente
ters
te
rs out in the
th
he suburbs,
su
satellite
centers, to begin to take
tak
ake
e care
c re of
ca
f people.
peop
ople
op
le.
le
. In the 1950s,
1950s how many
chairs of Jewish
ewish studies were
wer
ere
e there
ther
th
ere at
er
t American
American universities?
univer
M: Two.
Herbert A. Friedman: Two. Exactly. Where were they?
35
M: Columbia was one...
F: Harvard...
M: Harvard the other?
Herbert A. Friedman: Right. Two chairs
chairs of Jewish studies,
ch
studi
Harvard and Columbia,
Colu
umb
mbia
ia,
ia
, [40:00]
[40:
[4
0:00
0:
00]
00
] in the
the whole
who
hole
le United
Uni
nite
ted
te
d States
Stat
of
w many
man
ny are
e there
ther
ere today?
er
to
oda
day
y?
America. How
M: Four in Chicago.
Ch
hicago.
.
M: Probably two
tw
wo hundred.
hundre
ed.
Friedma
ma
an: How
How
o ‘bout trying
try
rying three, four
fou
our hundred.
hund
How
‘bout trying
g two hundred
hundr
dred
dr
ed departments
depart
tment
ts of
of Jewish
Jewi
Je
wish studies,
wi
studies and the
department has got more than
th
han one
one chair.
chair
r. I mean, the
proliferation
to the
on is totally unbelievable,
unbelievable from the ‘50s here
h
end of the ‘80s, in thirty-five years, call it a third of a
century! Short time! I mean, it’s just bursting with activity!
Who wants to name me the names of five authors in the ‘50s, the
36
‘60s, the ‘70s? What...Five, big, famous authors, what names
come to your mind?
M: Herman Wouk.
Herbert A. Friedman: Herman, uh, Wouk
M: Steinbeck.
k.
Fried
dma
man:
n Who?
Who?
?
M: Steinbeck.
k.
Fri
iedman: Wasn’t
Was
asn’
n t Jewish.
Jewi
Je
wish
wi
sh.
sh
M: Saul Bellow.
low.
Herbert A. Friedman: Bellow.
Bello
lo
ow.
Audience members: Leon Uris. Uris...
Herbert A. Friedman: Uris.
37
F: Roth.
[several voices together, indistinct]
Herbert A. Friedman: Who?
M: Henry.
Fried
dma
man:
n Henry.
Henry
ry. [41:00]
ry
[4
41:
1:0
00] Singer,
Sing
nge
ng
er,
, somebody
s me
so
mebo
b dy said?
s
F: Miller.
Fri
iedman: Miller.
Mil
ille
l r. [inaudible
[in
inau
audi
au
dibl
di
ble audience
bl
aud
udience responses]
re
espo
You
got it. I mean,
ean, the
e list could
cou
ould
ou
ld go
go on and
and on and
an
nd on and on, Chaim
Potok, somebody
body said.
sa
aid
id. Okay.
O ay. What
Ok
at you
you had, then,
th
hen
n, is a very
v
substantial growth of
and
f major,
majo
ma
jor,
jo
r um, uh,
uh
h, cultural,
cul
ultu
tura
tu
ral,
ra
l religious,
religio
social, cultural,
tural, religious,
religiou
us, and
and social.
socia
al.
l. Social, suburbs,
subur
centers, de- um,
um moving out.
out That’s economic growth.
growth
Okay, the next major chapter in uh, what’s his name’s book,
Karp’s book, Chapter 13 [writing with marker] was entitled
“Zionism: 1945 and Forward.” [42:00] Okay? What would you say
38
was the attitude of the American, the American Jewish community
toward Zionism in, let’s go back here, to the 1920s, 1930s?
M: Against it.
Herbert A. Friedman: Basically, against it. Basically. What was
the year that
at Chaim
C aim Weizmann and
Ch
and
d Albert
Alb
lbert Einstein came
cam
ame to the
United States
es to try to start a consciousness
consciousness raising about
Zionism, here
re in
n the
the United
Uni
nite
ted
te
d States?
Stat
St
ates
at
es? What
es
What year
yea
ear
r did
did they come? The
famous photograph
ograp
ph showing
s ow
sh
owi
ing
g both
h of
of them
them on
th
on the
the deck
dec of a ship.
F: ’51?
Fri
iedman: ’51?
’51
51?
?
M: No, must have been
bee
een
n ’20s or ‘30s.
‘30s
‘3
0s. ’33 or...
0s
Herbert A. Friedman: Not the
the ‘30s.
‘30
30s.
s.
Audience members: ‘20s? ’20?
39
Herbert A. Friedman: [writing with marker] [43:00] 1921. There
was the two judges of the Supreme Court...
Audience members: Brandeis...
Herbert A. Friedman: And...?
Audience members:
mbers: Frankfurter.
Fried
dma
man:
n Frankfurter.
Frank
nkfurt
nk
ter
er.
. Both
Both
Bo
h of
of whom
who were
wer
e e strong
st
Zionists. Frankfurter
rankfurte
er was
was trying
tr
g to negotiate
nego
ne
oti
tiat
te with King
Kin Saud,
not the one of
of Saudi
di Arabia.
Arabi
bia
bi
a. Kind
Kin
ind
in
d Saud
Sa
aud was
was
s the
the desert
deser
rt Bedouin
tribe that was
of
wa
as the ancestors
anc
ces
sto
ors
s of
of uh present
pres
sen
nt day
day King Hussein,
Hu
Jordan. Uh, who
great
wh
ho was the
th
he forerunner...
f re
fo
reru
runn
ru
nner
nn
er...
er
. You
Yo
ou gotta
gotta know
kno
ow one
o
name in the Zionist
1921.
Zion
nist
t movement,
movement
nt,
nt
, who
who was
was he
he forerunner
forer
run
unne
ner before
ne
be
When was the
e First
t Zionist
Zio
ioni
n st Congress
Congr
gres
gr
ess in Basel,
es
Basel
l, Switzerland?
Switzerl
Sw
M: 1896?
Herbert A. Friedman: 1897. [writing with marker] 1897, that was
after the Dreyfuss, uh, whole case. Uh, that was the First
Zionist Congress. The Second Zionist Congress I think was 1899,
40
I’m not sure about that, but I think that as it, or ’90. [44:00]
And there was one American there, and he was the leader of the
American Zionist movement for a long time. Stephen...?
Audience members: Wise... Wise...
Fri
riedman: Wise. [writing
[wr
writ
it
tin
i g with marker]. Stephen
Step
St
Wise.
Rabbi Stephen
en Wise. Born in Budapest,
Buda
da
apest, came to America as a very
young man, founded
things
found
ded a rabbinical
rab
abbi
bini
bi
nica
ni
cal
ca
l school,
school
sc
ol,
ol
, among
amon
am
ong
on
g many
man
ma
ny other
oth
that he did,
me,
, where
whe
ere I had
had to
to honor
ho
ono
nor
r of
of going,
goi
oin
oi
ng,
, and
a d he
an
h taught
tau
and I spent three years
ye
ear
a s sitting
s tt
si
tting at
at his
is feet,
fee
eet,
, and just about
everything I learned
that
ed in
in terms
term
te
rms
rm
s of my
my ideological
ideo
id
eolo
eo
lo
ogi
gica
al conclusions
conc
clu
I believe in
n came from
fr
rom
m that
tha
at period
peri
pe
riod
ri
od in
in his
his
s school.
sch
hool. And
An
nd Wise was
getting very
and
y old,
old, after
afte
er a while.
whil
wh
ile
il
e. Wise
Wis
ise
e promoted
pr
rom
omo
oted Weizmann,
Weiz
zman
Wise got Einstein
the Zionist
nstei
ei
in into
in
Zio
ioni
io
nist
ni
st movement.
mov
ovement. Many,
ov
Man
any,
y, many
man years
later on, [45:00]
him to
45:00] Ben-Gurion
BenBe
n-Gu
nG rion went
wen
ent
en
t to see Einstein
Ein
nst
tei
ein to ask
a
be the president
ident of Israel,
Isra
Is
rael
ra
el,
el
, he
h went
t to
o Princeton
Pri
rinc
nceton to see
nc
se him,
they had a historic meeting.
said no.
meetin
in
ng. And,
And
nd, uh, Einstein
Ei
no He said,
“I can’t, I can’t be the president of a country.
country I wear
wea an old
sweater and I smoke an old smelly pipe, and I can’t put on a
high hat, and I can’t be a president of a country. I can’t do
it! I will help...” And he gave his name, he helped...I, I saw
41
him once in my life, uh when I asked him if he would make a
radio broadcast for the UJA, and he said, “Certainly!” He was a
good Jew! He was a believing Jew, not God, he...He said, “I am
not sure about God, I just don’t know. I think probably there is
a God. I don’t think God would take chances like throwing the
dice. Uh, I think, so there’s gotta be a God with some kind of
plan for the
e universe.
uni
n verse. But I’m
m not
not
o sure!”
sure!” [46:00] Well,
Well okay, it
We
sounds like all the rest of us, doesn’t
doesn’t it? Um, a good Jew, warm
do
hearted, believed
lieve
ed in Israel,
Isr
srae
ael,
ae
l, Zionist,
Zio
ioni
nist,
ni
, believed
beli
be
liev
li
eved
ev
ed in
in Jewish
Jewi
communities,
, raised
raise
sed
se
d money.
mon
mo
ney.
y. Wonderful.
Won
nde
der
rful
ul. So Wise
Wis
ise
is
e was
was the
forerunner, Weizmann
n and
nd Einstein
Ein
instei
in
in were
re the
the international
int
n ernation
flagbearers of
in
of the movement,
mov
ove
emen
ent,
en
t, but
ut the
the
e majority
maj
ajor
rit
ty of the
e Jews
J
America in the
of?
th
he ‘20s were
we
ere
e scared,
sca
are
red
d, and
and what
wh
hat
t were
wer
re they scared
sc
What was the
e one
one thing
g about
abo
b ut Zionist
Zio
ioni
nist
ni
st that
tha
at frightened
frightene
ed them?
ed
t
M: Dual loyalty.
alty.
Herbert A. Friedman: Dual
l loyalty.
loya
lo
yalt
ya
lty.
lt
y. Are
e you
you sure, is everybody
ev
sure he understands
erstands what that phrase means? Any problem
proble with it?
Okay. Reason I’m saying it is, dual loyalty will continue, did
continue, to plague Jews for the next forty or fifty years.
Doesn’t exist anymore. Anybody here, [47:00] anybody here, have
42
any qualms inside of himself about his loy- loyalty or his love
or his belief in Israel, and, versus his belief and loyalty in
America, to America? Anybody here guilty, or susceptible...No,
let me use...Is there anybody here afflicted with the disease of
dual loyalty? Anybody here feel dual loyalty? Okay, we got one.
F: All of us...
s...
M: I think it still
st
til
ill
l exists.
exis
ex
ists
is
ts. It’s
ts
It’s not,
not,
, I think...
thin
th
ink.
in
k...
k.
..
: You
ou
u think
thi
hink it
hi
it still
stil
ill exists?
il
exis
ex
sts
t ?
M: I think the
th
he question
quest
tio
on comes
co
ome
es up,
up I think
thin
ink
in
k the
the question
questi
ion came up
through the Pollard
Po
ollard affair.
af
ffa
fair
i . I think
thin
th
ink
in
k the
th question
que
qu
estion has...[End
ha
as..
Side
A; gap in recording]
ecord
rd
ding]
g]
M: ...that, that’s what
at
wha
hat
ha
t was
was thrown
th
t us,
us, was
wa dual loyalty.
loy
Herbert A. Friedman: You know the position I took on the
t
AWACS
thing? A senator, uh, a, a congressmen who’s a really, really
good, really good, [48:00] uh, friend of mine, by the name of
Jack Kemp, asked me to come and talk to a Republican caucus of
43
congressmen and senators, uh and I was living in Israel at that
time, and I happened to be in the states and so I came down
there, and he had about twenty-two of them in the dining room in
the Senate, and um, the guy who was the head of AI- AIPAC, and
uh tell me his name, the one before Tom Dine...
F: Morrie Amitay.
mit
tay
a .
Fried
dma
man:
n: Amitay,
Ami
mita
tay,
ta
y, Amitay,
Ami
mita
tay, yeah,
ta
yea
eah,
h, was
was sitting
sitting there,
and uh, my presentation
prese
ent
ntatio
ion
io
n was
wa very
ve
ery simple
sim
imple
e and
and
d very
v ry
ve
straightforward.
have to
ward. “United
“Un
nit
i ed
d States
Sta
tates strategic
ta
strate
tegic
te
c considerations
co
ons
n ideratio
be parallel with
with Israeli
Isr
srae
sr
aeli
ae
li security
sec
ecur
u it
ity
y considerations.
co
ons
nsid
ider
id
rat
atio
io
ons. Any
An
ny time that
those two things
hi
ings diverge,
div
ver
rge
e, then
th
hen you
you are
are senators
se
enat
ato
at
ors and congressmen
co
of the United
ed States, [49:00]
[49:
[4
9 00
00]
] and
and you
you have
ha
ave to put America’s
Am
Amer
strategic considerations
onsid
id
derat
ations first.
at
fir
i st
st. If these
the
hese two things
thi
hing
ngs do not
ng
diverge in your mind,
then
mi
ind
nd, but
b t converge,
bu
conver
erge
er
ge, and they
ge
y are
are together,
toget
America’s strategic
trategic needs
need
ne
eds
ed
s and
a d Israel’s
an
Israel’s
l’s
s security
sec
ecur
urit
ur
i y needs can be
handled by one decision. If
If there’s
ther
th
ere’
er
e’s anybody
e’
an
nyb
ybody among you who feels
that American
an strategic needs require you to see five AWACS
aircraft to Saudi Arabia, I am one Israeli citizen who tells you
go ahead and do it. But you have to awful sure that you’re
right.” Pause. “”Ask me any questions.” Then we had a big
44
question period. I said, “Has Israel asked you to sell AWACS to
Israel? [50:00] Answer’s no. So Saudi Arabia has asked you,
Israel hasn’t asked you. How many of thing that Is- that
America’s strategic requirements demand that you sell those
planes?” A few hands went up, not too many. I said, “Now let’s
get down to brass tacks. How many of you feel that selling the
AWACS to Saudi
udi
di Arabia is for economic
eco
ono
n mi
mic reasons, having
havin
ing to do
with, not strategic?
other
trategic? Or public relations
rel
elations reasons? Or any
a
set of reasons?
enough
ons? Now
Now all
all those
thos
th
ose
os
e other
othe
ot
her reasons
he
reas
re
ason
as
ons
on
s are
are not
not good
go
to outweigh Israel’s
Isra
ael
el’s security
secur
urity needs.
ur
nee
ne
eds.
s. Security
Sec
ecu
ec
urit
ity
it
y needs
need
ne
e s are
ar stronger
than all those
ose other
r things.”
thi
hing
hi
n s.
s.” On
n and on
on they
th y went, and I finally
came to the bottom
if,
bottom line,
lin
ine
e, and
and I said,
sai
aid,
, “Well
“We
Well
ll
l if
if I were
e you,
y
since there’s
’s
s doubt and
an
nd indecision
in
nde
eci
cisi
sion
si
on [51:00]...I
[51:
:00
0]...I wouldn’t
would
dn’ sell
AWACS to uh Saudi
Sa
audi Arabia,
Arab
bia
ia,
, and
and I wouldn’t
woul
wo
uldn
ul
dn’t
dn
t sell
sell F-15s
s to Israel.
By not selling
ing F-15s
F-15s
5s to Israel,
Isra
rael
ra
el, then
el
then you
you make your
your public
pub
relations points
oints with
wit
ith
h the
t e Arabs,
th
s, and
and you don’t
don
n’t
t get
get them
the pissed
off, and you
it that
u don’t have
hav
ave
e oil
oil problems,
probl
blems,
, uh,
uh, so I’d balance
balan
way. Don’t sell either type
at this
typ
pe of airplane
air
irplan
ne to either nation
nati
moment. And don’t let the Jews of this country bulldoze
bulldoz you.”
They looked at me, see, you know by now that’s typical Friedman!
They don’t know that. Uh, they look at me, “Jesus, this sounds
very statesmanlike,” which it really was. ‘Cause I’m absolutely
45
convinced that the Jews of this country were insane to put
themselves on the line in that AWACS fight, [52:00] and you lost
it! And you lost the next one, ‘cause you were fighting about
sel- not selling F-15s to, to uh Saudi Arabia, because by the
next time around, I was pushing like mad to sell the F-15s to
Israel, and therefore I knew that they were gonna sell ‘em to
Saudi Arabia.
another
a. So
S don’t try to
o block
bl
loc
o k it, and don’t suffer
suff
su
defeat. They
y all were trying to
to block
block them, just make sure we
bl
get ‘em. And
d we got
got two,
two, three
thr
hree
ee times
tim
imes as
as many,
many
ma
ny,
ny
, as they sold to
Saudi Arabia.
a. When
en the
he American
Ame
merica
me
an Jewish
Jewi
wish
h community,
commu
muni
mu
n ty
ty,
, under
unde the
pressure of fanaticism,
know
fanatici
ism
s , doesn’t
d es
do
esn’t use
use its
it brain
brai
br
in and doesn’t
does
when to back
k off and
nd pass,
pass,
s ‘cause
s,
‘ca
c us
use
e there’s
th
her
ere’
e s always
alwa
al
ways gonna
wa
gon
nna be a next
time, then the
of
th
he American
Ameri
ica
an Jewish
Je
ewi
ish community
com
ommu
mun
mu
nit
ty might
mig
igh
ig
ht be accused
ac
ccu
dual loyalty,
y, because in this
thi
his
hi
s case
case [53:00]
[53
53:0
00] dual loyalty
loy
yalt means
blind obedience
ence to what
what the
th
he Israelis
Isra
Is
rael
ra
eli
el
is want.
is
want. And
d AIPAC
AIP
PAC is
i guilty
of blind obedience
edience
e to
to what...Now,
w at...Now
wh
ow, let me just
ow
jus
st put
pu in one
o
sentence about
out my track
trac
ack
ac
k record
reco
re
c rd
d with
wit
ith
it
h AIPAC.
AIPA
AI
PAC.
PA
C. The
The
h man who founded
AIPAC was a man by the name
K E N E N,
nam
me of Isaiah
Isa
saiah Kenen,
Ke
N
nicknamed “Si”
in
Si” Kenen.
Kenen Okay.
Okay I met Si Kenen first in 1947,
19
Germany, when he came there to visit a DP camp, with a
delegation of people, and Si Kenen and I were close friends ever
since. When he founded AIPAC, sometime in the early ‘50s, I
46
forget what year, middle ‘50s, he asked me to help him, which I
did, and there was a small board accumulated, and the first
operating budget of AIPAC was $30,000. [54:00] Then he came to
me, said, “Hey, I really, we, we gotta move, we gotta move.” Uh,
it was after the ’56 war, now I remember. He said, “We gotta
begin to do a much deeper job than we’re doing.” I said, “Fine,
what d’you want?”
wan
nt?
t ” He said, “You’ve
“Yo
You’ve
v just
just created this
is Young
Y
Leadership Cabinet, uh, can you turn
turn it loose, uh, on the matter
tu
of raising dough
h for
for AIPAC.”
AIP
IPAC
AC.”
AC
” I said
sai
aid sure.
sure
su
re. And
re
And within
wit
wi
thin a couple of
years, we had
I
ad kicked
kick
cked
ck
e it
it up into
int
to the
the
e seven
seve
ven
ve
n figure
figu
fi
g re range...And
range
turned the whole Young
You
ung
n Leadership
Lea
e de
dershi
ip Cabinet
Cabi
bine
bi
et loose
lo
oos
o e on it, in ’60
and ’61, ’62.
2. So by
y the
the time
time we
e got
go to the,
the
e, to the Six
Six Day War,
the machinery
big
ry
y of AIPAC
AIP
PAC
C was
was
s well
wel
ell
l built,
buil
bu
ilt
il
t, well-funded,
we
elll-f
funded, good,
go
staff in place,
ace
e, good connections
con
onne
n ct
ctio
ions
io
ns all
all around
aro
oun
und
d the country
cou
untr already.
So, I’m
m not
t against
ag
gai
a nst AIPAC.
AIPA
AI
AC. I’m
I’m one
one of the
e two
two or three
original founders
unders of the
the
h damn thing!
thin
th
ing! [55:00]
in
] But
But all I say is
that in its latter years
yea
ears
ea
rs it
it has
h s grown totally
ha
tota
to
tall
ta
lly blind in regard to
ll
taking its instructions from
about
fr
rom Israel
Isr
srae
ael without
ae
wi
ith
thout thinking twice
t
maybe question,
ion maybe question,
question maybe come up with some
som kind of
clever tactic, which I had tried to do then. Stall on the F-15s,
push for the F-15s at a different point. That’s what I would
urge you to do, that’s what a leader does. Now, let me close
47
that by asking you a question. Were the charges of dual loyalty
that you heard...and by the way give me a time frame, when were
you hearing them?
M: The time that I can think about is A- is AWACS, that people
were being questioned. People who were against the AWACS sale,
Jews were being
ein
ng charge with dual
dual
l loyalty.
loy
oyalty.
Fried
dma
man:
n: Okay.
Oka
kay.
y.
M: 1982 for sure, remember...
re
eme
m mb
mber
e ...
Fr
riedman:
: ’82?
’82
2? [56:00]
[5
56:
6:00
00]
00
M: Specifically
ally
y because
beca
cause George
ca
Geor
o ge Bush
Bus
ush
h was
wa
as the speaker
sp
pea
eake
ker at the uh
ke
Washington conference,
confere
enc
nce,
e, UJA Younger
Young
nger
ng
er Leadership
Leadershi
ip Conference,
Conferen
Co
and
that’s what the subject...He
subjec
ect
ec
t...
..
.He
H made
made
d a statement
st
tat
atem
emen
em
ent
en
t that, you
yo know, “I
recognize that
you’re Americans,
hat there isn’t
t any
any dual
dua
ual loyalty,
lo
oyalty,
ya
Am
you have a right to petition the government,”
government ” all that...um...
that
Herbert A. Friedman: Did he use the phrase?
48
M: Sure, I mean I didn’t...
Herbert A. Friedman: Did he use the phrase?
M: Um...He may have.
Fri
riedman: May have.
e.
M: I remember
er his
hi
is very
very specific,
spe
peci
cifi
ci
fic,
fi
c, very
very
y specifically,
spec
sp
ecif
ec
ific
if
ical
ic
all
al
ly, that
th
was
really the...
..
Fr
riedman:
n: Memory
Mem
emor
ory
or
y is
i tough,
tou
ough
h, I do appreciate
app
ppreciat
te that. Um,
not sure he would
would have
ha
ave
e used,
use
ed, I’m
I’m not
not sure
su
ure
e he would...You
would..
..Y
were
sensitive that
hat
t that’s, to
to the
the fact
fact that
tha
hat that’s
tha
th
at’s what
t he was
saying. I doubt
oubt
t if he
he used
d the
he phrase.
phr
hras
ase.
e.
M: Fine.
Herbert A. Friedman: It’s like calling a black man a nigger.
n
People don’t say that. They may think it, but they don’t say it.
Uh...
49
M: That was the subject, I’m just reconfirming the...
Herbert A. Friedman: Yeah. Well, alright. So, um, uh, ’82.
Anything since then? Any episodes anybody knows? [57:00]
Secondly, how widespread do you think it was? How, what was your
feeling? Anybody say it to you on the street in Chicago?
M: No, it’s something that’s said
sai
aid
ai
d in
in a Washington...
Fried
dma
man:
n Washington.
Washi
hingto
hi
on. Any,
Any
ny, anything
any
an
ythi
hing
hi
n appear
app
p ear in, uh, in
the Trib, in
n Chicago,
Chicago
o, in
n print?
pri
rint? Any
ri
A y hints,
An
hint
hi
ts, any
any suggestions?
suggest
No.
I don’t think
nk
k so, either.
eith
ei
the
th
er. I think,
t in
th
ink
k, uh,
k,
uh,
h, the
the
e American
Ame
merican air
ai is clear
on that subject.
je
ect. And
d I think
thi
ink
k Jews
Jew
ews
s pretty
pre
pr
ett
ty much
mu
uch
h have a feeling
f
that the American
when
eri
ican air is clear.
cle
lear
le
ar. I think,
ar
thin
th
ink, under
in
under pressure,
pres
ssur
the air isn’t
’t clear,
cl
lear,
r, when there’s
ther
th
ere’
er
e’s
e’
s a lot
lot of uh static
stat
st
atic in
at
i the air,
over some war,
ar, or some,
some
so
me,
me
, uh, particular
part
rtic
rt
icular problem,
ic
probl
lem
m, it might
mig
surface. I am surprised
surprise
sed
se
d it doesn’t
’t surface
sur
rfa
face
ce one
one hell of a lot
more! ‘Cause
e the fact of the
the matter
mat
atte
ter is
te
s that
that our loyalty
loyalt toward
Israel, and our actions on behalf of Israel are so strong,
str
[58:00] so blatant, so massive, that I’m surprised that there
isn’t a steady, constant backlash. I mean, I think it’s an
enormous tribute to the Jews of America. What are all those two
50
hundred fifty million goyim afraid to open their mouths at a
handful of Jews!? Why don’t we get it? Why don’t we hear more?
We really don’t. And I think it’s because it doesn’t exist in
their minds. I tell what I think it does exist in their minds.
A) The Jews are different. The Jews have got some set of culture
and values of their own that they cherish. The Jews always fight
for each other,
her
r, they’re a closed
clos
osed
ed
d clan.
cla
lan. And, uh, then
en that
t
results in one of two attitudes. “Geez,
“Geez, I take my hat off to
‘em.” Or the
e other
oth
her attitude
att
ttit
itud
it
ude
ud
e is one
one of,
f, [59:00]
[59
59:0
00] “Look,
“Look, you can’t
crack in. I mean,
mafia
mean
n, uh,
u , they’re
uh
they
ey’re uh,
ey
uh, they’re,
they’r
th
’re
’r
e, it’s
it’
t s a closed,
clos
kind of thing,
ng, and uh,
uh,
h um,
um,
m I don’t
don
n’t
’ know,
kno
now, I don’t
no
don
o ’t think I wanna
tangle with ‘em.”
‘em.” See.
See.
Audience member:
mbe
er: It’s family.
fami
fa
m ly
ly.
Friedma
ma
an: What?
Wha
h t?
Audience member:
mber: It’s family
fami
mi
ily
Herbert A. Friedman: It’s family, it’s family.
M: Perhaps you have that in not only Israel but Soviet Jewry...
51
Herbert A. Friedman: Well, that, okay. There’s a long list of
things, you know...Are Jew, all Jews, so hot about those black
Jews in Ethiopia? I mean, what is this? They’re white people!
Why are they [indistinct] all hot and bothered about the black
people?! Sure, the whole agenda of Jewish concerns, but it’s all
lumped together
the
er under the fact
ct that
tha
h t we’re a separate
te culture
c
with a separate
and
rate set of values and
an
nd a separate set of beliefs,
be
um, and we go to
o church
chu
hurc
rch
rc
h on a different
dif
iffe
ferent
fe
nt day,
day
ay, and
and uh,
uh, there’s
th
double parking
Kippur
ing permitted
per
ermi
m tt
tte
ed on
on the
th
he streets
stre
reets
s because
beca
caus
ca
u e it’s
i ’s Yom
it
Y
today. What the hell
l is Yom
Y m Kippur?
Yo
Kipp
pur?
Uh,
Uh, you
you
u know...[indistinct
know...[i
audience comment]
mm
ment] What?
What
Wh
at?
at
? [1:00:00]
[1:0
[1
:00:
:0
0 00
00]
]
M: She said,
, “Double
“Double parking?”
par
arki
k ng
ng?”
?” I said,
sai
aid,
d, “Yeah,
“Ye
Yea
Ye
ah, Temple
Templ
le Emanuel.”
le
E
[laughter]
[la
laug
ughs
ug
h ] Yeah,
Yeah,
h the
th
he cops
cops don’t tag you, in
New York. I don’t know about
abo
bo
out anyplace
any
nypl
place else.
pl
el
All the no parking
signs here don’t apply,
apply you may park,
park ‘cause the Jews are out in
force! Uh, so, okay. So, they can either be very envious of
us...I am amazed that the atmosphere is as tolerant and
understanding as it is. And I think it’s really a tremendous
52
tribute, both to the Jews and their acculturation into the
society in America, and it’s a tremendous tribute to the nonJews, who have gotten so much poison out of their systems.
‘Cause they all came from other countries, a hundred years ago,
two hundred years ago. They came from Germany, they came from
Poland, they came from Sweden. I mean, who’s an American, for
God’s sake? And
They
An
nd they could have
hav
ave brought...not
b ou
br
ought...not could
d have.
ha
did [1:01:00]
0] bring with them from
fr
rom their countries of origin all
the baggage!
! And
d yet
yet here
her
ere
e in America,
Ame
meri
rica,
ri
, it got
got cleansed
cle
lea
ansed out of the
system, to a very
ver
ry great
g ea
gr
eat
t extent.
extent
ex
t.
M: I thought
t it was
s interesting,
inte
in
tere
te
rest
re
stin
st
i g, in
in discussing
disc
di
scus
sc
ussi
us
ing Tuesday’s
Tuesd
day
scenario with
th
h the ASP,
AS
SP,
, that
tha
at there
ther
th
ere
er
e wasn’t
wa
asn’
’t more
mo
ore
e thinking
thinki
ing about the
history of America,
Ame
erica, that
th
hat we’d
we
e’d
d gone
gone through
thr
hrou
ugh the Father
Fath
he Coughlin
her
episodes and
of thing,
d that
tha
ha
at type
ty
thin
th
i g, and
and these
these things
thi
ing
ngs
s came and went,
and, and, what
hat you
u have
hav
ave
e is more
e of American values
va
alu
lues and respect
for other people’s
eople’s beliefs.
bel
elie
iefs
ie
fs.
fs
. You
Y u go through
Yo
thr
hrou
ough
ou
gh a trend and then it
pulls back towards the center.
cen
nte
ter.
r. I think
think
k the
the history of the
country’s very
ery reassuring.
reassuring
Herbert A. Friedman: Absolutely. I’m a very funny guy. That
whole ASP thing leaves me pretty cold. I couldn’t write that
53
scenario, Nathan wrote it. Um, ‘cause he and I have this
constant intellectual discussion, he says, “Your head is in the
sand!” [1:02:00] I said, “I don’t really believe that antiSemitism is much of a problem in America!” I really, honest to
God, don’t. I’m not gonna get scared if the ATO publishes a
report that there were 367 episodes of somebody threw a paint
can at the door
over a tombstone.
doo
or of a synagogue
ue or
or knocked
kn
tom
ombs
I...doesn’t mean anything to me. Hey,
Hey, if I saw, at that
tha parade
in Skokie, whenever
of
whene
eve
ver
r it was,
was
as,
, some
some years
years
rs ago,
ago
go, that
that the governor
g
the state of
f Illinois
Illin
inoi
in
o s marched
marc
rched at the
rc
he head
hea
ead
d of that
tha
hat
ha
t Nazi parade,
and that there
the
ere was the
the
h National
Nat
a io
ional Guard
Guard
d out
ou
ut in
n uniform waving
w
American flags
ag
gs as part
part of
f that
tha parade,
par
arad
de, and
and
d if
if they read
rea a
message from
m the President
Pre
esi
ide
ent
t of
of the
the United
Uni
Un
ite
ed States
Sta
tat
ta
tes at that
tha parade,
I would say to
o myself, ‘Fellas
‘Fe
F ll
llas
a get
as
get the
the guns
gun
uns
s out.’ In
In other
o
words, if you
the imprimatur
ou pupu
u- have
ha
imp
mpri
mp
rima
ri
matu
ma
tur of the state,
tu
sta
tate
te, at any
te
level, local,
if you
l, [1:03:00]
[1:0
03:
3:00
00]
00
] statewide,
statewid
ide,
id
e national- nationwide,
e,
nat
ationwid
gt the approval
oval of the
he state
sta
tate
t behind
behi
hind
d an
n act
act of
of clear anti-Semitic
an
intention, then you got a problem,
prob
pr
oble
ob
lem,
le
m, and
d you
you know you got
go a
problem, and
d you better deal with it very,
very very,
very very fast.
M: Is there, primarily an significant...
54
Herbert A. Friedman: Insignificant. In my book, me,
insignificant.
M: So maybe Louisiana’s like another world...
Herbert A. Friedman: No! [indistinct]
Audience members:
mbers: ...gonna run for
fo Congress... he might
migh win...
Fried
dma
man:
n He’ll
He’ll
ll run
n for
for Congress,
Congr
gre
gr
ess,
s, and
nd he might
mi
win.
Fine! And you
ou got, and
and
n you
you
o have
have 435
4 5 congressmen
43
cong
co
gre
ress
sme
m n in that
tha room,
and one hundred
dr
red senators
sena
nato
na
tor
to
rs in
in the
t e other
th
othe
ot
er room!
room
ro
m! So if he’s
he
e’s there,
one about 435,
35
5, and let
5,
let
t him
him
m try
try his
his damnedest.
damn
ned
dest
st.
. The first
fi
irs time
that he holds
ds a caucus
s with
wit
i h ten
ten other
othe
ot
her
he
r congressmen
co
ong
ngr
ressmen and
and the
Speaker of the House
House
se comes to that
that caucus,
cau
aucus, then
au
the
en I would
woul call for
a hundred thousand
Right
housand
nd
d Jews
Jew
ews
s [1:04:00]
[1:04:00
00] to march on
00
on Washington.
Washingt
Wa
then, not anothput
noth- wouldn’t
would
ldn’
ld
n’t
n’
t wait
wait another
anoth
ther
th
r day!
day
ay! The Jews gotta
g
up a demonstration
tration of strong
stro
ong opposition
opp
ppos
ositio
os
on to it. But meanwhile,
mea
forget it. He’ll talk to the converted,
converted he’ll talk to the people
who believe the way he talks. And I’m not gonna get in heat
about it, or lose any sleep. I’ve told you the point at which I
would lose sleep. And if I really thought that he was
55
accumulating danger, and to put it to the Hitler analogy, Hitler
tried his putsch in nineteen hundred and twenty-three, twentythree. He was the chancellor by 1933, only took ten years. ’23,
what’d he have? He had a ragtag bunch of World War I veterans,
poor starving bastards, torn uniforms, not much food. He was
feeding them a few pfennigs a day to buy beer [1:05:00] and
hotdog and cigarettes,
two thousand
with
cig
gar
a ettes, and he
e had
ha
ad about
ab
nd men
m
him, uh, and
d they came out of this
th
his
is beer hall, and they came down
the street to the
th
he bridge
brid
br
idge
id
ge across
acr
cros
oss
os
s the
th Isar
Isar River,
Riv
iver
er,
er
, I know exactly
where it is,
, and
d there
there
re were
wer
ere twelve
er
tw
wel
elv
ve cops
cops
s strung
stru
rung
ru
n across
acr
c oss the
bridge. And the sergeant
serg
gea
e nt who
ho was
s in charge
char
ch
rge says,
say
ays, “You got two
thousand guys
with
ys
s behind
nd you,”
you,”
, and
and
n they
the
hey had
had one
on
ne truck
tr
wi
ith a machine
gun mounted on
on top of
of the
th
he cab.
ca
ab. And
And the
the sergeant
se
erg
gea
ant says,
says
s, “Have you
got a permit
you’re
t for
for this parade?
para
pa
r de
de?
? You’re
You’
Yo
u’re
u’
re making
mak
kin
ing
g a parade
parad
de and
de
a
entering into
limits.”
to the
th
he city
ci
limit
its.
it
s.”
” So Hitler
Hit
itl
ler pointed
poin
nte
ted
d up to
t the
machine gun,
, he says,
sa
ays
ys, “That’s my permit.
permit. Get
t out
out of the
th way.”
Okay, now there
from
here you have
have the
the
h stage
st
tage set.
set
et.
et
. One
One shot, poong,
poon
that sergeant,
nt, and fifty million
mil
illi
lion
li
on people
peopl
pl
le would be alive today.
There’d be no World War II.
not a
II [1:06:00] Okay? Sergeant was
w
leader, he was a manager. Doesn’t shoot, gets on his uh
motorcycle, runs into town to the city hall to see what to do
about giving a permit to this bunch of people, or refusing a
56
permit, or gimme more cops, or something. So, boooom, these guys
barrel in. By the time they got a mile and a half deeper into
town, at the residenzstrasse where there was another narrow
street with a throat, there were two hundred cops strung across
the throat of that street, and that’s where the shooting did
take place, and the police shot and shot. And that’s whre a man
by the name of
f Horst Wessel got
got shot,
s ot
sh
ot, and later on he
he was made a
martyr in the
he Horst-Wessel-Lied,
Horst-Wessel-Lied
d, the
th
he song. “Blood spurting
spur
from,” uh, “Jewish
is
“Jewi
ish blood
blo
lood
od spurting
spu
purt
rtin
rt
ing
in
g from
om our
our knives!”
kni
nive
ves
ve
s!” [1:07:00]
[1
the Horst-Wesselessel- named
nam
med after
after this
thi
his guy.
guy.
.
A dozen
n people were
wer
re killed.
ki
ill
l ed.
. Hitler
Hitl
ler was
was
a arm
arm in arm with a
Doctor Scheubner,
ub
bner, who
who was
was
s his
his medical
medi
me
dica
di
al man,
ma , and
and um, when
whe the
shooting started,
ar
rted, Scheubner
Sc
che
eub
bne
er pulled
pull
pu
lled
ll
ed Hitler
Hitl
ler
r down
dow
do
wn to the
th
he sidewalk,
wrenched his
s uh,
uh, wrenched
wrenc
che
hed
d his
his shoulder,
shou
sh
ould
ou
lder
ld
er, or Hitler would
er
woul have
gotten shot.
. There
The
he
ere was
was a guy
uy from
fro
rom
m Harvard
Harv
Ha
vard by the
the name
name of
Hanfstaengl,
name,
, Putzi
zi
i Hanfstaengl,
Han
anfs
f taengl,
, who
wh was uh, [laughs]
[l
lau
aughs] great
g
friend of Hitler’s,
itler’s, who
who had
had a little
litt
li
ttl
le Volkswagen
Vol
olks
kswa
ks
wagen parked in a
wa
little teeny
y side street and
and grabs
gra
rabs
bs Hitler,
Hit
tle
ler, puts him in the
Volkswagen, takes him down to his villa on the Starnberger
See,
Starnbe
which is a couple hours south of uh Munich. And the cops saw it,
and they tracked the license plate, and they came and arrested
Hitler two days later, down there, put him jail, in a Landsberg
57
Prison, where he wrote his book, Mein Kampf. The cops didn’t
shoot at the first bridge. The cops did shoot an hour later by
the time they got down deeper into town. [1:08:00] When do you
shoot? When do you shoot, Mr. Duke? That’s all you gotta figure
out. And you gotta have that feeling, when it’s wrong to do it
and when it’s right to do it. But people don’t think in those
terms. Somebody’s
bod
dy’
y s gotta think
k in
n those
tho
hose terms.
So, let’s
tempt
t’s go back. I mean we
we get away, always...You
always...Y
me, and we go way
dual
wa
ay off
off on these
the
hese
se stories.
sto
tories
es.
es
. Um,
Um dual
dual loyalty,
loyal
loyalty is something
I am
somet
thi
hing of
of which
wh
am amazed
amaze
zed
ze
d that
tha we
we don’t
don’ get
accused of much more
e often.
oft
ften
ft
e . And,
, uh, I uh,
uh, when
whe
h n I said I don’t
think it’s in
n the air,
air, you
ou quite
qui
u te rightly
rig
ght
htly
ly pointed
poi
oint
nted out
nt
t to
t me that
it is in the
it
e air. And
An
nd there
th
her
re are
are undoubtedly
undo
un
dou
do
ubt
ted
dly moments
moments when
wh
surfaces, but
of
ut uh it’s not
not something
so
ome
meth
thin
th
ing
in
g that
th t I think the
th
he Jews
he
J
this country,
y, by
y and
nd large, are
are very
very uh
uh concerned
concer
rne
ned
d with.
with Let me
ask you a question:
of
uestion
n: Do you think
nk that
that this fear
fea
ar [1:09:00]
[1:09:
dual loyalty
y holds very
ver
ery
er
y many
man
ma
ny Jews
Jews back?
back
ck
k? Let’s
Let’
Le
t’s say, if there’s
t’
gonna be a big parade on behalf
gonna
beh
ehal
alf
al
f of Soviet
Sov
vie
iet Jewry and you’re
yo
fly the flag
g of Israel,
Israel and the Israel Consul General in Chicago
is gonna come out and sit in the bleachers, so you’re identified
with Israel, fighting on behalf of Soviet Jews...Do you think
that, when you go to ask people to join that parade or some
58
school to send all their kids uh...Do you think that there are
very many people hold back because of a fear of being accused of
dual loyalty?
M: No.
M: Yes.
Fried
dma
man:
n: No?
No? Yes?
Yes
es?
? You
You think
thin
ink
in
k there
ther
th
ere
er
e are
are people
peop
who’d
hold back. Yes? Two
Tw yesses.
yes
ye
sses
es. Well,
es
We
ell
ll,
, let
le me see
ee a show
sho
h w of hands.
How many people
First
ople thing
thin
ng yes,
yes and
and how
how many
man
any people
an
peop
pe
ple
l think no?
n
all the nos.
. One...one,
One...o
.one
.o
ne,
ne
, two,
two
tw
o, three,
thr
hree
hr
ee, four,
ee
four
fo
ur, five,
ur
five
fi
ve, six,
ve
, seven...How
s
many people think
think yes?
ye
es?
? One,
One
e, two,
two three,
thr
hre
ee,
, four...
four.
... [1:10:00]
[1:1
10:
M: Most people,
may
ple, the
e vast majority
maj
ajor
aj
rit
ity
y [unclear]
[unc
[u
clear] say
sa
ay no.
no There
Th
be...
Herbert A. Friedman: Yeah,
h we’re
we’
e’re
re talking
talki
ing
ng vast majority.
majority Seven to
four is still
ll a closer call that I thought would exist.
exist
M: Herb, ‘cause I think it’s, it’s that we, you know, we know
the universe we know, which is...
59
Herbert A. Friedman: Chicago.
M: ...large. No, no, I meant, the organized world, the
affiliated world, or the identifying world. We know that world
well, but there are a lot of people who would even go to
synagogue on
n the
the
h High Holiday’s,
Holiday’
y’s,
, but
ut wouldn’t want to
to do
anything in public. You know...
Fried
dma
man:
n Because
Becau
ause of
au
of fear.
fear
ar.
M: That’s got
ot
t nothing
nothin
ing
in
g to do
do with
w th loyalty.
wi
loy
yal
alty
ty.
ty
M: Well, they’ve
ey’
’ve internalized
inter
rna
nali
l ze
ed their
thei
th
eir
ei
r own
ow reasons
rea
re
asons for
r why
wh they
won’t...
M: Take it a step further.
furt
rthe
rt
her.
he
r. I think
think
k that,
tha
hat,
t, you
you get to the
th next
circle of Jews
ews out there, beyond
beyo
be
yond
yo
nd the
the ones
ones
ne that even go once or
twice a year
r to synagogue,
synagogue but the next circle out there,
the
that
they think that identifying at a Yom Ha’azmaut uh celebration is
being too religious, and too Jewish, and they don’t wanna be
involved with anything public along those lines either...
60
Herbert A. Friedman: Yeah, well that’s another, eh, that’s
another motive altogether. I understand. [1:11:00]
M: I’m saying people have internalized their own reasons for
being assimilated or not out there, and they stay that way.
We’re not reaching
eac
chi
h ng everybody by
by any
a y stretch...
an
Fried
dma
man:
n: I’m
I’m trying
try
ryin
ing
in
g to find...I
fin
ind.
in
d...
d.
.I know
know we’re not
reaching everybody.
erybo
ody
dy. I’m
I’m trying
tr
g to
to focus
focus
fo
s on
on whether
whe
h th
ther
e the dual
loyalty fear
And,
r is still
stil
ll operative
oper
op
e at
ative in
i a large
lar
rge number
num
u ber of Jews.
J
seven to four
large
ur
r would
d mean
mea
me
an that
tha
hat
t the
the answer
an
nsw
swer
er to
to my question,
quest
tio
number of Jews
ew
ws is, what’s
wha
at’
’s four
fo
our sevenths,
sev
even
nths
s, it’s
it’
t’s
t’
s almost
t fifty
f
percent. You’re
u’r
re telling
tellin
ng me
m that
tha
hat
t almost
almo
al
most
mo
st fifty
fif
ift
ty percent
percen
nt of
nt
o the Jews
of this country
ntry
y are
e operating
operat
tin
i g under
unde
un
der
de
r the...
th
M: Four elevenths.
venths.
Herbert A. Friedman: Of,
Of oh I’m sorry.
sorry Four elevenths.
elevenths
M: One third.
61
Herbert A. Friedman: One third. One third of the Jews of this
country are operating under the impact of, of, somewhere in the
back of their heads, a fear of being accused of dual loyalty.
M: I don’t know if it would be dual loyalty. I think there is a
concern among several Americans of, of being Jew at home and
only an American
ric
can
a on the street.
street
et. Is
I that
that a dual loyalloy
yal
al- [1:12:00]
I don’t know
w if that’s properly defined...
def
de
fined...
M: Fear of anti-Semitism...
anti-Se
Semiti
Se
tis
ti
sm..
. .
..
M: Yeah.
M: They’re not
t being secure
sec
ecur
u e in their
the
heir
ir Jewishness.
Jew
wis
ish
hness.
M: Not so much
uch a dual
dua
ual
l loyalty.
l yalty.
lo
Herbert A. Friedman: Are one
one third
thi
hird
rd of the
th Jews of America
Amer
not
secure in their
heir Jewishness?
Audience members: Sure. Wouldn’t surprise me. Ask for a vote
on..
62
Herbert A. Friedman: Whoa, whoa, whoa. I, I touched some kind of
button here. One at a time. One, are one third of the Jews of
this country not secure in their Jewish- I mean I’m taking uh
Gary’s formulation. It’s a good a formulation as any. Go ahead.
M: Uh, couple
le of
o different thoughts.
tho
houg
ug
ght
h s. When we took the
th vote, I
didn’t think
k we were talking about
abo
bo
out
ut the majority of Jews,
Jew
but
whether there
re were
we
ere some
som
ome
e Jews,
Jews
Je
ws,
ws
, so...
so..
so
..
: No,
o, I’ve
I’v
’v
ve extrapolated.
ex
xtr
t apol
olat
ol
ted
ed.
M: Yeah, well
ll
l I don’t know...
kn
now
w...
.
Fried
edman:
ed
n: Four-sevenths!
Four-se
s ve
ent
nths
hs!
hs
!
M: ...four-sevenths.
sevenths. Uh,
Uh, but
but
u I think
think
k there’s
the
here
re’s
re
s a couple of other
factors that
t go to this public
pu
ubl
blic
ic demonstration
dem
emonst
tration
ra
of, of things
th
I’ve
talked to people.
eople For example,
example going back,
back from,
from from the ‘60s,
uh when the FBI was out taking pictures of any kind of rally,
[1:13:00] making dossiers and things like that, I’ve heard
people say they’re uncomfortable about any kind of public, semi-
63
political demonstration. Um, so I, I don’t know if it’s all
religious factors that, that would lead...Plus, just, you know,
people have become less committal, they don’t want to be out
committing to much of anything in public.
Herbert A. Friedman: Have to, we have to try to isolate it down.
We have to try
y to focus it. It’s
It s like
lik
ike we’re trying
g to
to make an
autopsy on something, and we’re looking
looking at every single
lo
singl point to
look for a certain
certa
ain disease,
dis
isea
ease
ea
se,
se
, the
the disease
diseas
di
ase
as
e is called
cal
alle
led
le
d fear as a
result of uh
of, so
h dual
dua
al loyalty
loya
yal
ya
lty
y that
t somebody
someb
ebod
dy might
migh
ght
gh
t accuse
accu
ac
c se you
y
you don’t wanna
anna be accused
acc
c us
used
e of
of it,
it
t, you
u wanna
wa
ann
nna be
b thought of only
as a good American,
me
erican,
, and
and because
beca
be
caus
ca
u e of that
tha
hat
t fear,
fe
ear
ar, you pull
pu
ull back and
you don’t act
ct
t freely
y and
and
d openly
ope
enl
nly
y [1:14:00]
[1:1
[1
:14
:1
4:0
00]
] according
acc
cording to you
heart, Jewish
desires,
sh heart’s desires.
desi
de
s re
res.
s If
If you
you don’t
do
on’
n’t
t have those
th
ho
hose
if you’re a totally
tota
ta
ally
y assimilated
assimi
ila
late
ted
te
d Jew,
Jew, forget
forget it,
it
t, not
no talking
ta
about that guy. See
Se
ee what
wha I mean?
n? Okay.
Okay.
M: What was the ship that
t as fired
fir
ired
ed on by the Israelis? Was that
the Pueblo incident?
M: Liberty.
64
Herbert A. Friedman: The Liberty. In the Yom Ki-...
M: That was an event that triggered the cerebral thought process
of dual loyalty. Where do I stand on it? Maybe it might have
been in the best interest of the Israelis, maybe they had a good
reason to do it, but as an American, hey, I felt badly that this
action was taken,
tak
ken
e , [Friedman: Mhmm.]
Mhmm
Mh
mm.]
mm
] and I feel very
ry vulnerable.
vu
As far as public
ublic displays or parades,
par
rad
ades, that doesn’t faze
faz me,
that’s ok, but this
thi
his
s is something
som
omet
ethi
et
hing
hi
ng which
which
ch is
is so
o much
muc
uch
h more...because
more
today everybody
body demonstrates!
demo
de
m ns
nst
trat
ates!
Did
Fr
riedman:
n: Did
Did anybody
any
nybo
b dy speak
spe
eak to
to you
you about that?
th
any non-Jewish
is
sh friend,
frien
nd,
, or
or neighbor,
ne
eig
ighb
hbor
hb
or,
or
, or
or business
bu
usin
ine
in
ess associate,
asso
oci
anybody...
M: Yes. They
y said,
d,
, “What
“Wh
What
a of those
thos
ose
os
e damn Israeli,
Israe
eli
i, those Israelis
doing? They’re
’re supposed
suppose
sed
se
d to be loving,
loving,
i , peaceful
peac
pe
acef
ac
eful people, and
ef
they’re involved
olved in all these
th
hes
ese
e wars,
wars
wa
rs, it’s
rs
it
t’s another warlike
warli
action.” [1:15:00]
:15:00]
Herbert A. Friedman: Yeah, well, forg- forget about ‘all these
wars.’ You’re gonna not, uh, unless you got a lot of patience,
65
you’re not gonna explain oh about a hundred years’ worth of
wars, but uh take the one thing: “what are these Israelis
doing?” Even in the middle of a war, with all the pressure on
‘em, they shouldn’t shoot at an American ship!
M: Correct.
Herbert A. Friedman: Have you heard
he
eard
d that?
M: Yes.
Fr
riedman:
n: That
Tha
hat
t way,
way that
tha
hat directly?
dire
di
rect
re
ctly
ct
ly
y? Okay. Often?
Of
M: No, it was
as a singular
singul
lar incident.
inc
ncid
nc
iden
id
ent.
en
t
Friedma
ma
an: Singular
Sin
i gular incident.
inci
in
cident. Lot of
ci
f viciousness
vicious
behind it, or was it more
mor
ore
e curiosity?
c ri
cu
iosit
ity?
? You
You gotta
got
otta
t try to, get the
nuances, what
did you
at are we talking
talki
ki
ing about
abo
bout
ut here.
her
re.
e. Would you feel,
fee
feel it was vicious? Did you feel it was,
of an
was it had the tones
t
attack in it, of criticism?
M: Yes.
66
Herbert A. Friedman: Okay. Um, and how did you answer it?
M: I said, “If the Israelis did it, with their type of
intelligence, [1:16:00] there had to have been good reason. They
might have been jamming their signals, or whatever, but the
Israelis just
is too
st don’t
d n’t kill people
do
peopl
ple indiscriminately.
i di
in
discriminately. Life
Li
precious.”
Fried
dma
man:
n What
What
t was the
the good
good
go
d reason,
reaso
son,
so
n by
by the way?
M: Weren’t the
th
he monitoring
monit
itor
it
orin
or
ing
in
g uh Israel,
Isr
srae
sr
ael,
ae
, Israel’s...
Isr
srae
ael’
ae
l s...
s.
Fri
iedman: The
The ship
shi
hip
hi
p was
was right
righ
ri
ght off
gh
off the coast...
coa
ast.
M: It was a spy ship.
sh
hip
ip.
Herbert A. Friedman: Well,
l monitoring.
mon
onit
itor
it
oring.
or
. Use
Use the “monitoring.”
“monito
It
was a very, very highly technical American intelligence
intelligenc
gathering vessel, that had the capacity to intercept all
telephone conversations, radio conversations, Chaim in one tank
talking to Shmerel in the other tank is picked up on the
67
Liberty. I mean, everything that’s in the air gets picked up.
That thing was bristling with all antennae. I mean, it was a
very, very...You know when you say a spy ship, it sounds like
some James Bond, dinky thing. Hell, it was the most elaborate,
technically advanced, information gathering vessel. [1:17:00]
Pilots talking to each other in the air, you can intercept that.
I mean you intercept
int
ter
e cept everything.
everythin
ing. Okay?
Oka
kay? And she’s hanging
han
angi
offshore, uh,
Strip,
h, just about off the
the
e southern end of the Gaza
G
uh, just a few miles
mil
iles
es off
off shore.
sho
hore
re.
re
. And
An the
the Israeli
Isra
Is
rael
ra
eli
el
i pilots
pilots see it,
and they report
port in,
in and
and uh,
uh uh,
uh
h, the,
the,
e, went
wen
ent
en
t right
righ
ri
g t smack
s ack up to the,
sm
to the, to, chief of
f staff,
sta
taff
ta
f , right,
righ
ht, right
rig
ight
ig
t to
to the
t e top of the
th
general stop,
p, and he reported
repor
orte
or
ted
te
d it to
to the
the prime
pr
rim
me minister.
minist
ter Um, and
what do we do
o about it?
it
t? And
An
nd the
the decision
deci
de
cis
ci
sio
on was
wa
as ask the
e American
A
vessel to leave
ship
eav
ve the area.
ar
rea
ea.
. We just
jus
ust
t can’t
can’
ca
n’t have
n’
hav
ha
ve that damn
da
sitting there,
The
re, it’s
it’s
s going to inhibit,
inh
nhib
ibit
ib
it,
it
, uh, all communication.
comm
co
mmunic
mm
vessel was asked to
to leave
leav
le
a e the area.
area
ar
ea.
ea
Now there
is
ere are two
tw
wo versions
vers
ve
rsions of
rs
f the
the story.
stor
st
ory
or
y. One version
vers
that the message
ssage was received
recei
ei
ive
ved
d [1:18:00]
[1:1
[1
:18:00
:1
0] by the vessel and
rejected. The
said
he second version is,
is the captain of the vessel
ve
he never got the message, it was garbled. Okay, there really is
no way, there was no way then, there’s certainly no way now,
twenty whatever it is years, eighteen years later, to know which
68
is the true version. The fact is, the vessel didn’t leave the
area. Once the vessel ref- did not move, or refused to move,
whichever, you know, um, then the order was given to take it
out, knock it out. Just as simple as that. And they knocked it
out, caused a lot of loss of life and wounded, uh, tremendous, I
mean multi tens of millions of dollars’ worth of damage. Um,
and, um, it’s
is
’s been
b en pretty promptly
be
prom
ompt
pt
tly
l forgotten.
forgotten. The episode
epis
ep
taught at the
he command and staff
staf
ff college
col
llege at Fort Leavenworth,
Leaven
Kansas, to all American
to
Ame
meri
rica
ri
can
ca
n officers;
offi
of
fice
fi
cers
ce
rs; it’s
rs
’s
s taught
tau
augh
ght
gh
t at Annapolis
Annap
all naval officers.
ffice
ers
rs. [1:19:00]
[1
1:19:
9:00]
9:
M: In what context
co
ontext do
do they
they teach
tea
e ch it?
it?
?
Fri
iedman: They
The
hey
y teach
teac
te
ach
ac
h it as
as a problem
pro
pr
oblem in which
whi
a local
commander of
f the
he
e ship
shi
hip has to decide
hi
dec
ecid
ide
id
e whether
wh
hether it’s
it
t’s in
in American
Am
interests to
o stay there
ther
th
ere
er
e or not to
to stay there,
there
e, and
an the basic
decision is the captain
No
captai
ain
ai
n should
shou
sh
o ld have
have gotten
gott
go
tten
tt
en the
the
h hell out.
ou
American interests
terests were at
t stake.
sta
take
ke. Now,
ke
w, the
the captain’s, comp- uh,
uh, contention
next
ion is,
is how did he know what was gonna be the
t
message he was gonna pick up? Maybe the next message that he was
gonna pick up was between the Egyptians and the Russians to send
some uh aircraft in. He said, “How do you I know what I’m gonna
69
pick up?! I felt it was in the interests of the, of America for
me to stay there.”
M: Was there was there on a government issue...
M: But he must have been following orders...
M: He had to
o be there...
M: Yeah, of course...
course
se...
se
.
Fr
riedman:
n: He
He was
was sent
s nt there,
se
the
ere
re,
, of
f course.
cou
ourse.
M: ...be general
ner
ral order
r he
he was
was following.
foll
fo
llow
ll
owin
ow
ing.
in
Friedma
ma
an: Well,
Wel
e l, he asked
aske
as
ked for, from,
ke
fro
om, for
for uh
instruction from 6th Fleet
Fle
leet
et headquarters
head
dquarter
t rs in Naples.
Naples.
M: ...they take forever...
forever
Herbert A. Friedman: Well, it’s not that they take forever,
[1:20:00] but uh, um, uh, once again, the implication that he
70
gave in his testimony was that he was told by 6th Fleet to stay
there.
M: But they denied that.
Herbert A. Friedman: And then they denied...eh, you know.
Exactly, exactly.
act
tly
l .
M: Of course,
e, he
e could
cou
ould
ld have
hav
ave
e steamed
stea
st
eame
ea
med away
me
away and,
and
nd,
, and...
and
an
d...
: He
e could
c ul
co
uld have
ha
ave gone
gon
one fifty
on
fift
fi
ty miles away,
aw
could
have gone hundred...
un
ndred...
..
M: ...gone back
bac
ck if they
the
ey told
t ld him
to
him to
to go back.
bac
ack
k.
Friedma
ma
an: That’s
Tha
h t’s right.
righ
ght.
gh
t He could have
t.
ha
ave gone fifty
miles back, he could
d have
hav
ave
e pulled
pulled
d a hundred
hun
ndr
dred
ed miles
mil
i es back, uh, he
still would have picked up
everything.
At any
p damn
dam
amn
n near
ne
everything.
ve
an rate,
war is war! And all kinds of things are gonna happen.
happen Let’s not
get off the track, it’s a very tempting thing. There is one,
there’s one episode that has occurred recently as a result of
it, and I don’t remember in what town, I’m sorry. Um, in some
71
town somewhere, they wanted to dedicate a public library and
call the library the Liberty Library...
M: It was north of Milwaukee. That’s where you used to be.
Herbert A. Friedman: It’s what?
M: It was north
orth of Milwaukee, where
whe
wh
ere you use to be.
Fried
dma
man:
n North
North
th of Milwaukee!?
Mil
Mi
lwau
aukee!
e!?
e!
? [laughs].
[lau
[l
a gh
ghs]
s . Really?
Re
Well
that’s a co- [1:21:00]
[1:21:0
00]
0
M: ...small suburb...
suburb..
..
Fried
edman:
ed
n: Well that’s
t at
th
at’s
’s a coincidence.
coi
incidence
e.
M: You wouldn’t
dn’t even know
kno
now
w a name...
M: You’d be...Try
Try me.
me
M: I don’t know, I don’t remember. It was a small suburb north
of Milwaukee.
72
Herbert A. Friedman: Well, I didn’t, I didn’t, I couldn’t
remember, and that’s too much of a coincidence. Anyhow, there’s
a group of people there, and they’re all steamed up uh because
they want to name it the Liberty Library, Liberty Memorial
Library, and there are Jews, uh in or near that town, who say,
that’s, don’t
the
’t do
d it, that’s an insult.
ins
n ul
ult. That will perpetuate
per
erpe
memory of something
if you
omething that can breed
bre
eed
ed anti-Semitism. Because
Beca
tell your kids
ids every
eve
very
ry time
tim
ime
e they
they say,
say
ay, ‘What’s,
‘Wha
‘W
hat’
ha
t’s,
t’
s,
, why,
why
hy, who...What’s
who.
this all about,
Then
out, why
why is this
thi
his called
hi
ca
all
lle
ed the
the Liberty
Liber
erty
er
t Memorial?’
Mem
e oria
you tell once
ce again,
, nice
nic
ic
ce innocent
innoce
in
ent farm
far
arm children,
ar
chil
ch
ldr
d en, um, all about
how the Jews
s bombed
d an American
Ame
meri
rica
ri
c n ship.
ship
sh
p. [laughs]
[lau
[l
ugh
ghs]
s]
] So, the
the Jews
don’t want it,
it
t, these
t,
e people
peo
opl
le say
say we owe
owe to
o the
the memory
y of
o the two
hundred sailors,
lor
rs, or whatever,
wh
hat
atev
e er
r, who
who got
got killed
ki
ill
lle
ed there.
. [1:22:00]
[1
And I never did
Did
d hear
ar any more
mor
ore about
or
abou
ab
out
ou
t how
ho the thing
th
hin
ing
g ended.
ende
you?
M: No.
Herbert A. Friedman: Who would like to take the responsibility
of tracking it down and finding out what, where that issue
stands now? How did it get resolved?
73
M: I’ll call Bonnie.
Herbert A. Friedman: Who’s Bonnie?
M: Bonnie Sumner, from Milwaukee!
Herbert A. Friedman: Oh, come on!
on
n! She
She won’t know. Or if
i she
does...
M: She’s got
t contacts!
contact
ts!
s
Fr
riedman:
: Good.
Goo
od.
. Then...
The
hen
n...
M: Gelman is
s here.
her
re. I’ll
I’ll bet
t you
you he knows.
kno
ows.
Herbert A. Friedman: Who?
Who
ho?
?
M: Larry Gelman.
lman
Herbert A. Friedman: Larry? Alright. Look, uh, do me a
favor...call...
74
M: You just wanna call Bonnie. [laughter]
Herbert A. Friedman: [laughs] Call...Hey Jack, you’re a
newspaper, you’re, you’re a newspaper man. Whom should he call
in Chicago or, or Milwaukee?
Jack: We had
d something in the paper
pap
aper on it a few weeks ago, or
ap
whenever it...
...
: You
ou did,
did
id, really?
id
re
eal
a ly?
?
Jack: Yeah. And
And I’ll
l call
cal
ll the
he office
off
ffic
ice
ic
e and
an
nd pull
pu
ull it, this
th
his
afternoon.
Friedma
ma
an: Alright.
Alr
l ight.
M: Thanks, Jack.
Herbert A. Friedman: That’s fine. [laughs] Thanks, Jack.
M: Thanks a lot, right?
75
Herbert A. Friedman: Yeah, you pulled it, you got him off the
hot seat.
Jack: You can still call Bonnie, though.
F: Maybe call...
ll...
Fried
dma
man:
n: Uh,
Uh, ladies
lad
adie
ies
ie
s and
an gentleman,
gent
ge
ntle
nt
lema
le
man,
ma
n, we
we got thirty
minutes. No more
e stories!
stori
rie
ri
es!
! [1:23:00]
[1:2
23:
3:0
00]
Audience: Aww!
ww
w!
Fri
iedman: Chapter
Cha
hapt
p er
r 14.
14.
F: Take that...[unclear]
t...[un
ncl
clea
ear]
ea
r
Herbert A. Friedman: Take that
that what?
wha
hat?
F: Take the bets...
M: [Indistinct]...’cause it’s real rural up there.
76
Herbert A. Friedman: Yeah, take some bets, you’re right, you’re
right, Lisa. If I wrote down all these stories, in my life, I
bet you I’d have a book.
M: There’s one question, Chapter 13, about a Herb Friedman
becoming the
e head,
hea
e d, head of the
he UJA.
UJA
J . Maybe you wanna
a expand
ex
on
that a little...
le...
Fried
dma
man:
n Yeah,
Yeah,
h, that
tha
at happened
happ
ppened
ed in
n that
t at period
th
perio too,
right. Chapter
ter 14 is
s called
cal
alle
al
l d “Changes
“Cha
anges and
and
d Challenges”
Cha
all
l enges” [writing
[
with marker]...Now
]...Now what
wha
hat
t we’re,
we’r
we
’re,
’r
e where
whe
here
e we
we are
ar
re here,
he
you
yo
ou see, we’re
in the 1960s
s and 1970s.
197
70s
s. What
Wh
hat
t were
wer
ere
e the
the major
maj
jor
r changes
changes and
an
challenges that
two,
tha
at you would
wo
oul
uld
d tick
tick off,
off
ff, [1:24:00]
[1:2
[1
24:
4:0
00] quick,
quick
k, one,
k,
o
three, four...
...
F: Six Day War.
Herbert A. Friedman: Okay,
Okay war in Israel,
Israel continued war
wa in
Israel. I gotta get you to start thinking of continued war.
Never mind Six Day War, Yom Kippur War...Continued war, another
77
war in Israel. You, think of the United States Jewish community,
that’s where we are.
F: Uh, Civil Rights Movement.
Herbert A. Friedman: Civil Rights Movement.
M: Vietnam.
Fried
dma
man:
n Vietnam.
Vietn
tnam.
tn
M: First shipment
ip
pment of arms
arm
rms
s to Israel.
Isr
srae
sr
ael.
ae
.
Fri
iedman: Shipment
Shi
hipm
p en
nt of arms
arm
rms
s to
o Israel.
Israel. You’re
Yo
ou’r still
not into the
e gu-...
guu-...
.
M: Assimilation!
tion!
Herbert A. Friedman: Can’t you people get into the guts
gut of the
American Jewish community? That’s what...
M: Assimilation.
78
Herbert A. Friedman: Assimilation.
M: Decline of Jewish day schools, uh...
Herbert A. Friedman: Decline of day schools? No, growth of day
schools.
M: Decline of Jewish
Je
ewi
wish
sh education
edu
duca
cati
ca
tion
ti
on in
in general.
gene
nera
ne
ral.
ra
l.
: Decline
Dec
ec
cli
l ne of quality
qualit
ity of Jewish
it
Jew
e ish education.
educ
No
decline of quantity.
qu
uantity.
y. Increase
Incre
reas
re
ase
as
e of quantity!
qua
ant
ntit
ity!
it
y!
! [1:25:00]
[1:
:25:00] More
M
mediocre schools!
ho
ools! More
Mo
ore
e quantity...
qua
ant
tit
ity.
y ..
M: [Indistinct]...all
nct].
...al
all schools
al
school
o s or after
aft
fter
r schools?
schools
s?
Herbert A. Friedman: All
All kinds:
kin
i ds
d : congregational
congre
ega
gati
tion
ti
onal schools in the
on
afternoon, Talmud Torahs, two
two days
days a week,
week,
ee
uh, day schools,
sch
um,
more schools
s in quantity,
quantity no growth in quality.
quality
79
F: Um, how ‘bout something about, um, the fact that much of the,
of the challenge to establishment, Columbia, Kansas, anti-, the
student stuff, where Jewish people were involved in that?
Herbert A. Friedman: Stick with Jewish stuff here, look...
M: There was
s a Bar Mitzvah...
Fried
dma
man:
n: All
All that
tha
hat
t we’ve
we’v
we
’ve heard
’v
hear
he
ard
ar
d so
o far...I’ve
far
ar...I’v heard
the word assimilation,
similat
ation,
at
n, growth
gro
rowth of assimilation
ro
ass
ssimil
ila
il
atio
ion
n [writing
[wri
[w
r ting with
marker]. I’ve
ve heard the
t e word
th
w rd growth
wo
gro
owt
w h of schools,
sch
choo
ch
ols
l , growth.
growth
M: [Indistinct]
nc
ct] Brandeis...
Bran
nde
eis
s..
..
Fried
edman:
ed
n: Brandeis
Brand
dei
e s University,
Univ
Un
ive
iv
ersi
ity, exactly.
exac
ctl
tly.
y. [1:26:00]
[1:
F: How about
t renewed
d pride
pri
ride
de in uh
h Israel?
Israe
el?
M: That took
k place in ’61,
’61 with the Bar Mitzvah celebration.
celebr
They tried to tie the two together.
80
Herbert A. Friedman: ’61, ’67, this was, this was the period of
increased pride in Israel. That’s a legitimate topic.
M: Pride in being Jewish, too. They kinda go together.
Herbert A. Friedman: This was the period of the great
organizations
ns growing
g owing their strength:
gr
stre
st
eng
n th
th: American Jewish
Jewis
ish Committee,
American Jewish
wish Congress, American
Americ
ic
can Jewish Conference, Conference
of Presidents,
ts, uh,
uh, ConferenceCon
onfe
fere
fe
renc
re
ncenc
e- Council
Cou
ouncil
il of
of Federations.
Fede
Fe
dera
de
rat
ra
tions. All the
organizations
ns grew,
gr
rew
ew, in these
the
hese two
he
two decades,
dec
ecad
des
es, strong,
stro
st
r ng
ng,
, internal
inte
growth. Federation
but
eration particularly.
par
a ti
ticu
c la
larly.
. It’s
s included
in
ncl
clud
ded
e under here,
h
it was the major
ma
ajor organization
org
rgan
rg
aniz
an
izat
atio
at
ion
io
n that
that grew.
gre
rew.
w. [writing
[wr
writ
it
ting with
wi
ith marker]
‘Federations’...Very
s’.
’ ..Very
y important
imp
por
rta
ant thing
thi
hing
ng [1:27:00]
[1
1:2
27:0
:00
0] happened
happe
ene in this
period, from
m a Jewish point
poin
po
i t of view.
vie
iew
w. Women
Wom
men in leadership.
leade
ersh
[writing with
th marker].
ma
arker
er]. Women
er
en in
in leadership.
lead
le
ader
ad
ership. Breaking
er
Br
rea
eaki
king of
ki
o the mold
of the old Jewish,
women
h, uh,
uh, pattern of
of women are inferior
in
nfe
ferior and
a
can’t...Women
en rabbis, women
wome
wo
men
me
n presidents
presid
idents
id
ts
s of
of federations,
fede
fe
d rations, women on
boards of all
ll organizations.
organization
ns. I mean,
mea
ean, major!
maj
ajor!
M: Do you really think that started then?
Herbert A. Friedman: Do I think it what?
81
M: Started in the ‘60s and ‘70s?
Herbert A. Friedman: ‘70s, certainly, yes.
M: I mean, I’m just seeing it happening now.
Herbert A. Friedman: Okay, uh, you
you may be retarded in your, in
your area...I
.I don’t
do
on’
n’t
t mean
mean you.
you
ou.
. You
You had
d the
the first
firs
fi
rst
rs
t president
presid
of a
ation
n in
in America
Ame
Am
eric
ica was
ic
wa
as Mrs.
Mrs.
s. Barbie
Bar
arb
ar
bie
e Weinberg
W in
We
inbe
b rg in
i Los
major federation
Angeles, was
President
in
s in the early
e rl
ea
rly
y ’70s.
’7
Presid
iden
id
nt of
f the federation
feder
Los Angeles,
, second
d biggest
big
bi
gges
est
es
t Jewish
J wi
Je
wish
sh uh
uh city
city in
in the country.
co
oun
[1:28:00] Uh,
h, you had,
ha
ad,
, um,
um,
, uh,
uh, by
by the
the early,
ear
rly, by the end
en of the
‘70s, you had
ad Mrs. Cardon,
Car
rdo
don,
n uh,
uh, Shoshana,
Sho
hosh
shan
sh
ana, who
an
who has come
co
ome up through
the ranks and
like
nd now
no
ow it,
it I don’t
don’
n t know
know what
wha
hat
ha
t she is,
is
s, it’s
it
l
musical chairs,
irs, when
wh
hen you...[indistinct
you
o ...[indi
dist
di
stinct audience
st
audie
enc
ce comments].
commen
Soviet Jewry,
y, okay. And
And the
the one, the
the job
job she
she had before
befor
that...Council
cil of Federation,
Federati
ti
ion
on,
, right.
righ
ri
ght. Have
gh
Have
av you had a woman
wo
president of
have a
f the Federation in Chicago yet? No.
No Will you
y
woman Federation president within the next five years?
M: Yes. Maybe.
82
Herbert A. Friedman: Yes? Maybe? Ten, ten years?
F: You’ll have one...
M: We have two big positions in Chicago, the president and
campaign chairman,
air
rma
m n, er...
Fried
dma
man:
n: Right,
Rig
ight
ht,
ht
, campaign
camp
ca
mpai
mp
aign chairman...
ai
cha
hair
irma
ir
man.
ma
n...
n.
..
M: ...and we
e just had
ha
ad our
our second,
second
se
d, we just,
just,
t, have
hav
a e our second
se
woman
taking over as
as campaign
campa
paig
pa
ign
ig
n chairman.
chai
ch
airm
ai
r an
an. We
e had
had one...
one
ne..
..
Fri
iedman: Oh!
Oh! See...
See
ee
e...
M: ...by now...And
w...And
nd
d that’s...about
tha
hat’
t s...abou
out
ou
t as powerful
powerfu
ul as uh, [1:29:00]
[
as uh president.
dent.
Herbert A. Friedman: Oh but then the next step is inevitable.
inev
Yeah. Alright. Um, so all of this, were the changes and the
challenges, and all of this, the net result, the net result of
all of this is big plusses, big plusses, plus, plus...Community
83
getting stronger and stronger and stronger. And all the other
things that are under assimilation, which is intermarriage, and
all of that, um, more intermarriage, which means more
conversions, ‘cause half your intermarriages result in a nonJewish partner converting and coming in. Conversion is a way to
avoid loss. Fighting against conversion, by the Orthodox, is a
refusal to try
y to make up gains.
gain
ins. All
ll the...let me put
pu it the
other way. You can talk about, [1:30:00]
[1:
1:3
30:00] and moan and cry and
weep, about the terrible
occur
terr
te
rrib
rr
ible
ib
le losses
los
osse
ses
se
s that
th
occ
ccur
ur as
as a result
result of
intermarriage,
ge, and
and you
ou can
an say,
say
y, “That’s
“Tha
hat’s
s a minus!
minu
mi
n s! What the hell
you got all these plusses
pl
lus
u se
es up there
the
ere for,
for
or, Friedman,
or
Frie
Fr
edm
d an, it’s a minus!
Intermarriage
ge
e is terrible.”
ter
erri
er
ribl
ri
ble
e.” But
e.”
B t the
Bu
th compensation
comp
co
mpen
mp
nsa
ati
tion factor
fac
cto againabout intermarriage
ma
arriage is
s that
tha
at it results
res
esul
ult
ul
ts in
n some
som
me plusses
pluss
ses of
conversion, so
o we don’t
don’
’t have
h ve a net
ha
net minus.
min
inus
s.
M: I’ll give
e you another
ano
noth
ther
th
e minus from
fro
rom that period,
per
rio
od, is ZPG.
ZP
Herbert A. Friedman: Okay. Okay.
Oka
kay.
y.
M: Zero population growth.
Herbert A. Friedman: Zero population growth.
84
M: We bought into it, and nobody else did.
M: No, no, no, that’s not true. The...everyone in the economic
class that we’re in bought into it...that’s the difference.
It’s
Fri
riedman: Oh! See,
, it’s
it
t’s not
not a Jewish phenomenon.
phen
enom
a socioeconomic
omic phenomenon, uh,
uh
h, you
you gotta make 250,000 dollars a
year ‘cause you got
got two
two houses
hous
ho
uses
us
es and
and two
wo cars
car
ars
s and
and two
two mortgages,
mo
so you don’t
t want
wan
nt any
y more
more
re than
tha
an two
two
o kids.
kids
ds.
ds
M: School tuition...
ui
ition...
..
Fri
iedman: Mmmm,
Mmm
mmm,
m [1:31:00]
[1:
1:31
31:0
31
00] two,
two
o, two,
two, two,
, two,
tw
twofifty! That’s
’s what
wh
it
it adds up
p to.
to [audience
[aud
[a
udi
ud
ience laughter]
la
aug
ught
hter]
ht
F: Two wives...
s...
Herbert A. Friedman: Two wives! Okay,
Okay yeah! The large number of
you has two wives.
M: Does that include a mistress? [Friedman laughs]
85
M: Oh, geez!
F: Honey?
Herbert A. Friedman: Well, that’s only one. One wife, and one
mistress!
F: Excuse me,
e, I didn’t...
didn
di
dn’t
dn
’t..
’t
...
..
.
: Th
That’s
hat
at’s
s one,
, one plus
p us
pl
s one
ne equals two.
t
M: Nice color,
or
r, Ray.
r,
F: It matches
es your
yo
our shirt
shirt and
n your
nd
you
our
r book!
book
bo
k!
[la
laug
ughs
ug
h ] Oh,
Oh wow!
w!
M: Now we know
now where the cut off...
off
Herbert A. Friedman: Never saw him like that, huh? [Laughs]
86
F: I got you [unclear word]
Herbert A. Friedman: Last item. Last item. Chapter 15.
[shuffling paper; writing with marker]. ‘Survival in a [1:32:00]
Free Society.’ [clears throat]. Who will try to concentrate into
one sentence, or one phrase, one phrase, the problem that we
face now, in
of
n the
the
h ‘80s, in the
e ‘90s,
‘9
90s
0 , and the next century,
cen
entu
this question
on of survival in a free
free society?
Jack: I will.
l. The
e problem
p ob
pr
obl
lem
m of dealing
dea
eal
ling
ng with...of
wit
ith
it
h...
..of
..
o having
hav
a ing a Judaism
when you don’t
n’t have other
o he
ot
her
r people
pe
e forcing
forci
cing
ci
g you
you
u to have it,
i
[1:33:00] and
nd
d forcing
forcin
ing
in
g you
you
u identify
iden
id
e ti
tify
fy as
as Jews,
Jews
Je
s, forcing
fo
you
yo to be
Jews, but looking
oo
oking at
t the
the
e strength
str
ren
engt
gth
gt
h of,
of, um,
um,
, I always
always say
say it, uh,
the strength
and
h of
of Judaism,
Judais
sm, from
fro
rom
ro
m the
the positives,
posi
po
siti
si
ive
ves
s, the traditions
tr
radi
elsewhere, not always
of
alway
ays having
ay
havi
ing to
to realize
real
re
aliz
al
ze your Judiasm
Jud
udia
iasm because
ia
b
the negatives,
the
es, the
he
e anti-Semitism,
ant
ntii Semitism
sm, and the, the
sm
the
e wars,
wars, and
a
negatives of
f uh our Jewish
Jewi
Je
wish
wi
sh experience.
experi
ience.
.
Herbert A. Friedman: Okay
Okay. Of course that’s it,
well
it and that’s
th
said, and nicely spoken, Jack, and it’s a whole paragraph, and I
can’t fit it on that page. I’m looking for the...
87
M: Buzzwords.
Herbert A. Friedman: I’ll edit it, I’ll edit it. Yeah, I like
that, wise guy, you edit it, I’ll just speak it on you...
[laughs]. Supposing you had to condense into a headline, kiddo?
Lisa: I would
ld
d say,
s y, uh, remaining
sa
remaini
ning
ng
g Jewish
Jew
ewish in a secular
ar world.
w
Fried
dma
man:
n: Okay.
Oka
kay.
y. Remaining,
Rem
emai
aini
ai
ning,
ni
, remaining
rema
re
main
ma
inin
in
ing
in
g is
is a static,
s
and
passive word.
d. Remaining
Re
ema
mainin
ing
in
g means,
me
, [1:34:00]
[1:34
34:00]
0] you’re
you
ou’r
ou
’ e not
n t advancing,
no
ad
you’re not progressing.
progressi
ing
n . It’s
I ’s a stabilizing
It
stabili
lizing
li
ng word,
wor
o d, and a slipping
backward word.
guilty
rd
d. So with
with your
you
our
ou
r permission,
p rm
pe
rmis
issi
is
ion
on,
, Lisa,
Li
isa
a, you’re
e not
n
of that. Change
an
ng remaining,
nge
rema
ain
nin
ng,
, it’s
it’
t s not
not remrem
m-
Lisa: Okay [unclear]...change
[uncl
cl
lear]
r]...chang
r]
nge the
ng
the verb,
verb
b, you mean?
me
ean
an?
Herbert A. Friedman: Yeah!
Yea
eah!
h! It’s
It’
t s gerund,
t’
gerund
nd,
nd
, it’s
it s not a verb...
ver
Lisa: Uh, revitalizing
evitalizing Judaism in a secular world...
world
Herbert A. Friedman: It’s also a gerund. She likes gerunds. Uh,
revitalizing? That gives the implication that it’s dead.
88
Lisa: Yeah, okay.
F: Practicing...
Herbert A. Friedman: I’m not trying to...I’m...I’m not trying
nitpick grammar.
mma
ar.
r Hey, let’s make
ma e that
tha
hat clear...
Lisa: I play
y with
th words
wor
ords
ds all
all the
the time.
time.
.
: I’m
m not
ot nitpicking
nit
tpi
p ckin
ing grammar.
in
gram
gr
mma
m r. I am trying to
get a slogan
n for you,
you
ou,
ou
, into
into
in
to your
you
o r heads.
head
he
ds. A short
sho
hort
rt thing...
thing
g..
Lisa: How ‘bout
bou
ut succumbing
succumb
mbin
mb
ing to a secular
in
sec
ecul
ula
ul
ar world?
wor
orld?
Friedma
ma
an: Succumbing!?
Suc
u cumbing!
g!?
g!
? [laughs]
Lisa: I play
y with words all
ll the
the time,
tim
i e, I cross one out...and
out.
I
cross [unclear]
ear]
Herbert A. Friedman: Yeah, alright, cross those out, kiddo.
89
Lisa: Okay.
Herbert A. Friedman: You, you, give me, give me the positive
stuff, yes.
M: How ‘bout adaptation to modernity?
Herbert A. Friedman: Adaptation to
to modernity. [1:35:00]
[1:35:00 That’s
so academic.
. You’ve
You
u’v
’ve
e been
been hanging
han
angi
ging
gi
ng around
aroun
und
un
d with
with too
too many
[lau
ugh
ghs]
professors. [laughs]
M: Building Judaism
Judaism
m in a secular
sec
ecul
u ar society?
soc
cie
iety
ty?
ty
?
Fri
iedman: “Building”
“Bu
Buil
i di
ding
ng”
ng
” is a good,
goo
od,
d, positive
e word.
wo
Building.
M: Nourishing.
ng.
[End Side B;
; gap in recording]
Herbert A. Friedman: That’s an even more positive word. It’s fun
to create.
90
F: How ‘bout nourishing?
Herbert A. Friedman: ‘Nourishing’ is a, is a stable word.
Nourish? I don’t want just to nourish. I want to grow.
M: Growing.
Fried
dma
man:
n: Okay.
Oka
kay.
y. Um...Let’s
Um.
m...
..Le
..
Let’s
Le
s try
try to...
to..
to
...
..
.
M: How ‘bout
t ‘Jewish
h synergy.’
syn
yner
yn
e gy
gy.’
Fr
riedman:
: How
How
w ‘bout...How...Let
‘bo
out
ut...H
How
ow.
...
.Le
et me,
me
e, let me
me ask you
what you think
ink
k of this.
this
s. [writing
[wri
riti
ri
ting
ti
ng with
wit
ith
h marker].
ma
ark
rke
er]. What’s
What
t’ the one
t’s
word that we
e hear
hea
ar all
al the time,
time
ti
me, the
me
the one
on word you
you hear
hear all the
time, [1:36:00]
:00] about
ab
bou
out
t why
w y you have
wh
have to help Israel,
Isr
rae
ael, why you have
to help Russian
sian Jews, why
why you...[unclear
y u...[
yo
[uncle
le
ear response
res
esponse from
audience]. That’s a slogan.
slogan
n.
M: Commitment?
Herbert A. Friedman: Commitment is wh- is what we need...
91
M: Survival.
Herbert A. Friedman: That’s the word. That’s the buzzword that
you people have used. I hear it every Montag and Donnerstag. Uh,
gotta survive, the Jews have to survive, we have to guarantee
the survival
l of
of the Jewish people,
peo
eopl
pl
le,
e we
we gotta work for
or the...
t
M: You’re hanging
angin
ng on by
by your
your fingernails.
fin
inge
gernai
ge
ails
ai
ls.
ls
: Right,
Rig
ight
ig
h , right,
righ
ht,
t right,
rig
ight
ig
t, right.
ri
igh
g t. Now, that’s
okay, I don’t
’t
t mind it.
it. But
But I wanna
wan
anna
an
na get
get past
pas
st it!
it
t! I wanna
wa
ann past it,
it isn’t enough,
according
ou
ug
ugh,
acc
cor
rdi
ing
g to
to your
your long
long
g paragraph,
par
rag
graph, over
ove there.
So, we have gotta
go
otta move
e from!
fro
r m! from
fro
rom
m [writing
[wri
[w
riti
ri
ing with marker]
mar
rk
rker
survivalism,
And
, that’s
tha
ha
at’s
s the hang
ng up,
up
p, that’s
tha
hat’
t s where we are
t’
are now.
n
it’s not bad;
it.
d; I am
m not
not against it!
it!
t But I wanna
wan
nna
a get
get beyond
bey
So, it’s from
word.
om survivalism
survival
alis
al
ism
is
m to,
t , what?
to
wh
hat?
t? Now
Now give
give me the other
ot
M: Vibrancy. Growth.
Growth
Herbert A. Friedman: Vibrancy, growth... [1:37:00] There’s one
word.
92
M: You want it start with an S?
Herbert A. Friedman: I want, no, we’re not gonna play guessing
games with it...
M: How many syllables?
sy
yllables?
Fried
dma
man:
n: Yeah,
Yea
eah,
h, right.
rig
ight
ht.
ht
M: Sounds like...
ike...
Fr
riedman:
: Um,
Um,
, I wanna
wan
anna
na get
get a word
wo
ord which
which has
ha
as in it
elements that
at will enable
ena
abl
ble
e us to
to go beyond
bey
eyon
nd survisurvi- mere
me
ere
survivalism.
in
. I don’t
don’t
’t think
k we’re
we’
e’re
e’
re gonna
gon
onna
na have to
o worry
wor
orry much
m
America about
have
ut survivalism,
surv
viv
ival
alis
al
i m, and after
aft
fter a while
e Israel
Isr
srael won’t
wo
to worry about
wars.
out it either.
eith
ther
th
er.
er
. I mean, we’ll
we’l
’l
ll get
get past all the
t
M: Success?
Herbert A. Friedman: No. Success is simply a kind of a
thermometer, a, a test of...
93
F: [inaudible]
M: Dominance.
Herbert A. Friedman: Dominance?! No.
M: You, you must have to a Jewish
Jewis
is
sh country...
Fried
dma
man:
n No.
No. I gave
gav
ve you
you
u the
th
he hint.
hint
nt.
nt
. It’s
It
up here.
F: Creativity?
ty
y?
Fri
iedman: From
Fro
rom
m survivalism
su
urv
rviv
ival
iv
alis
al
ism
is
m to
o creativity
creativity
y [writing
[w
with marker].
]. That’s
Th
hat’s
’s it. [1:38:00]
[1:
1 38
38:0
:00]
:0
0] We
We have
have to move
move into
int the
phase of creativity.
eativit
it
ty. Creativity
Cre
r ativity
y means
me
a whole
whol
le lot
lo of things.
t
It
refers to everything.
to create
a
verything. Creativity
Crea
Cr
eati
ea
t vi
ity means
s we
we have
ha
crea
better school
to create a better
ol system than we have,
hav
ave,
e, we have
ha
culture than
n we have.
have All you Jews have got to be much more
culturally adapted to Judaism, because we gotta produce some
more, some writers. We haven’t had a Martin Buber, or a Franz
Rosenzweig, or a Hermann Cohen, or a Heschel, or a Kaplan, in
94
fifty years! Yes, Wiesel is good; yes I, uh, Singer uh deserves
a Nobel Prize. Those are novelists, and I’m not against them.
They’re good! They all add to the tapestry of life.
M: They’re not from America.
Fri
riedman: What?
M: They’re no recent.
re
ece
cent
nt.
nt
. They’re
They
Th
ey’r
ey
’re
’r
e not
not from
om America.
Ame
meri
rica
ri
ca.
ca
.
: Correct.
Cor
or
rre
r ct
ct.
F: We have you.
yo
ou.
Fried
edman:
ed
n: Yeah?
? I’m
’m
m a,
a, I’m
I’ a,
a, a, a small
smal
sm
all act
al
ac of
creativity, [1:39:00]
[1:39:
9:
:00
00]
] and
a d I am like
an
lik
ike a little
e bit
bit of yeast
ye
that
you put in the dough
I
h and
and that
tha
h t makes
mak
kes the
th
he bread
brea
br
ead
ea
d rise. Sure.
Su
stimulate thinking,
yes. Um, but
I’m not
hinking, and I stimulate
stim
st
imul
im
ulat
ul
ate growth,
at
gr
rowth,
ow
b
a great scholar,
olar and I’m not capable of writing a great
grea book
like uh, like uh Mordecai Kaplan. Um, my energy is, my creative
energy, which is strong, is verbal, is uh, is charismatic in the
95
sense that I push with a personality, uh, but I’m not leaving a
book behind. So, I’m not good enough.
M: Well you should write one.
Herbert A. Friedman: Well I don’t know if I could write one. I
can write a book
bo
ook
o of stories. I can
can
a write
write all these stories
sto
of
this whole century...
M: ...do it so well...
wel
ell...
..
M: [inaudible]
le
e] would
woul
ld help
help you
you write
wri
rite
t it.
it.
Fri
iedman: [laughs]
[la
laug
u hs
hs]
] Uh,
Uh yeah?
yeah
ye
ah?
ah
M: In a session
sion before
be
efo
fore
re this, with
wit
ith
it
h Professor Rosenthal,
Ro
ose
senthal, we were
talking about
ut Jewish
h writers,
wri
rite
ters
te
r , and
d it seems
see
eems
ms that
tha
h t all the
th Jewish
writers we were talking about
ab
bou
out
t are
are from
m the
the generation of the
‘50s, is when
bodies
en they appeared,
appeared and they appeared with major
ma
of work. And I asked who are today’s writers, [1:40:00] and it
didn’t sound like there were...He said there are a lot of young
writers who are coming out whose work is ahead of them, and, and
96
typically the young writer comes out with their big work up
front, and and, what I think it really says is, is, we’re
lacking that right now.
Herbert A. Friedman: Correct. We absolutely are. So what I wanna
do, what I wanna do is this. I would like you to take [unclear
audience comment]...I
that I
mme
ent
n ]...I would like
li e you
ou to take that chapter
chap
ch
gave you from
om Neus- from Neusner
r on the third, uh, third
thi
generation...If
..If you
you see
see that,
that
th
at,
at
, that
that chapter
cha
hapt
ha
pter
pt
er that
tha
hat
t he
he wrote,
wro
chapter 14 in his
s latest
late
tes
te
st book...You
book.
...Y
You
u know
ow who
ho he
e is?
i ? Jacob
is
Ja
Neusner is a professor
University.
a great
profess
sor
o at
at Brown
Br
U iver
Un
ersity
er
ty. Uh,
ty
U , and he’s
Uh
he
maverick, he’s
or
e’s a great
gre
reat
re
at producer
pro
rodu
ro
duce
du
c r of books,
boo
ooks
ks, he’s
ks
he’s
s done twenty
tw
thirty books,
s, he knocks
kno
ock
ks ‘em
‘e
em out
out like,
like
li
ke,
ke
, you
you
u know,
kno
kn
ow, over
r a weekend,
and um, uh, he’s
he
e’s written
writt
ten books
boo
ooks
oo
ks on
on how
how to
o read
read the Talmud
Ta
Talm
[1:41:00] and
solid.
nd how
ho
ow to read the
th Mishnah,
Mish
Mi
shna
sh
nah,
na
h, so he’s,
he’s
s, he’s
he
s
Neusner was brought
brough
gh
ht up in Hartford,
Hartfo
ford
fo
rd, Connecticut,
rd
Connecti
icu
ut, as a third
generation Jews whose
e parents,
pare
pa
rent
re
n s, who
wh
ho grandparents
gra
and
ndpa
pare
pa
rents were immigrants,
re
i
whose parents
ts were born in
n American
Ame
meri
rica
ri
can and
ca
an
nd never taught, told him
what it was to be Jewish,
Jewish and he and his friends at
university...This whole essay is autobiographical and very
worthwhile reading. I want to get you to the last page ‘cause we
97
only have ten minutes. Turn to...would you turn to page, uh,
192?
Paul: Herb...I want to make a stab at something I asked before,
the one sentence, even though you have your sentence, which is,
‘being Jewish where there are no internal or external
requirements
s to
to be so.’
Fried
dma
man:
n: Yeah.
Yea
eah.
h. That’s
Tha
hat’
t’s
t’
s it. It’s
It’s being
bei
eing
ng Jewish
Jewis when you
don’t have to, the
the pressure’s
pre
res
re
ssur
ure’s off,
ur
off
of
f, there’s
there
re’
re
’s no
no pressure.
pres
pr
e sure No
pressure, externally
xternally
y on
n you
y u [1:42:00]
yo
[1:4
42:
2 00]
] from
fr
rom the
the
h outside;
outside there’s
no particularly
ar
rly neurotic
neur
urot
ur
otic
ot
ic pressure
pre
ress
s ur
ure
e on
n you
you from
fro
rom
m the inside.
in
nsi
Paul: Or in the
th
he community.
communi
nity
ni
ty.
ty
Friedma
ma
an: Or
Or inside the
the community.
community
y. You
Yo feel
comfortably American, you
you don’t,
d n’
do
’t, eh
h you
you feel
feel comfortably
comfortab
Jewish.
You have dual
no
crisis;
al image crisis,
crisis
is
s, you
you have
ha
no identity problem
probl
you’re nothing...You’re
ing
You’re comfortable American Jew,
Jew no pressures
p
on you, and in, within that framework, to try to be, now, what?
Do as much...What did you say, doing, or acting...?
98
Paul: I just said “being Jewish.”
Herbert A. Friedman: Being. Being. Okay. So, being is an
unconscious act. You breathe without thinking about it. It’s
unconscious. Mechanism breathes and breathes and breathes and
you stay alive, and you don’t think about it. The only ones who
think about it
asthma problems,
t are the people
e who
wh
ho have
ha
proble
lems
emphysema, where breathing is tough,
whole
to
ough
h, [1:43:00] and their
the
life is concentrated
they’ll
centr
rat
ated
ed on
on how
how the
the hell
he
the
hey’
y’ll
y’
ll get
get the next
n
breath. God help
p those
those
se peoppeo
eop- poor
eo
poo
oor
r people.
people
pe
le. But
le
But the
the rest of you?
Do you think,
where
k, even up
up at this,
thi
his, eighty-five
hi
eig
i htyy-five
yve hundred
hun
u dred feet,
fee
breathing is
s no necessarily
nece
cess
ce
ssa
ss
aril
ily
il
y as
a easy...You
eas
asy.
...Yo
You don’t
Yo
don’
do
n’t think
n’
thin
nk about it,
you’re just breathing.
I
breathin
ng.
. It’s
It’
’s unconscious.
unco
un
cons
co
nsci
ns
cio
ci
ous
s. Being
Be
ein
ing
g is unconscious.
un
nco
am! Cogito ergo
erg
go sum, I think
thin
th
nk therefore
ther
th
eref
er
efor
ef
or
re I am,
am the old
ol
ld Latin
L
phrase. So, with
th
h no
o pressure,
pressure
re,
re
, I simply
simp
si
mply
mp
ly be Jewish,
Jewi
ish
sh, I live
li
Jewishly. Okay,
kay, now
no
ow the
the only problem
pro
robl
ro
blem with that,
bl
th
hat
t, Paul, is that
that doesn’t
inside
t have in it
it the
the irritation
i rit
ir
itati
tion
ti
n that
tha
hat
t makes a pearl
pe
of an oyster.
r. That little grain
grai
gr
ain
ai
n of sand
san
nd has got to get irritated
and irritated
ed and irritated till it grows into a pearl.
pearl I don’t
see any irritation, that is stimulation, provocation, inside of
the word being. [1:44:00]
99
Paul:
Committing to Judaism without an internal or external...
Herbert A. Friedman: Committing, I don’t see it either. I need
that irritating word. I want an irritating word. I want a
creating word. Hey, what does it take to create?
M: Revolution.
on.
Fried
dma
man:
n: Yeah,
Yea
eah,
h, revolution
rev
evol
olut
ol
ution
ut
n nothing!
noth
no
thin
th
ing!
in
g! If
If you read
Pirkei Avot,
, it tells
tel
ells
s you
you
u that
t what
what
wh
t it takes
take
ta
es is
s one
one stinking
st
little drop inside of
got
of one
one stinking
stinki
st
ing little
lit
ittle
it
e egg,
eg
gg, and you’ve
you
creation. And
nd
d that’s
’s what,
wha
hat,
t in
t,
in Pirkei
Pirk
Pi
rkei
rk
i Avot,
Avo
vot
t, in Chapter
Chapte
er 5, that’s
what a drop of
of semen
n is
is called,
ca
all
led
ed, a ‘stinking
‘st
‘s
tin
nki
ing
g little
little drop.’
dro
M: A fetid drop.
p.
.
Herbert A. Friedman: That’s
Tha
hat’
t’s
t’
s what?
wh
hat?
t?
M: A fetid drop.
drop
Herbert A. Friedman: A fetid drop! That’s, and that creates. Uh,
would you turn to page 192...and start reading, out loud. I just
100
wanna hears us read those next two pages and that’s the whole
thing. The paragraph, uh, on the side. Who wants to start?
Anywhere.
Audience members: The new war?
Fri
riedman: The new war.
war
r.
M: “The new war is to
to shape
shap
sh
ape
ap
e an idea,
ide
dea, not
not a shared
sha
hare
red
re
d consensus,
cons
[1:45:00] but
ut a consensus
consen
co
ens
en
sus
s worth
wort
th sharing.
shar
aring.
g. There
The
here
he
r is
is simply
simp
no
corpus of intellectually
ntellectu
ual
a ly conseccon
onsecon
-
Fr
riedman:
: Consequential.
Con
nse
equ
uen
enti
tial
ti
al.
al
M: “...consequential
equen
ntial
al ideas about
abo
bout
bo
ut what
wha
hat it
it means
s to
to be a Jew, here
and now, in this place
pla
lace
ce and in this
this time, to which
wh
hic
ich Jewry
Jewr today
has access. The ideas
s the
the Rabbis
R bb
Ra
bbi
is preach
preac
ch must
must come from
somewhere. The policies expressed
have to
ex
xpr
pres
esse
es
sed
se
d in Federation
Fed
ederation meetings
meetin
begin with someone.
someone If theology and ideology for contemporary
conte
Jewry were merely what people pretend, a conventional
apologetic, a ritual of excuses, it might not matter, but ideas
to move people...”
101
Herbert A. Friedman: “Ideas DO move people.”
M: “Without ideas, people will not move. They will merely
twitch, pretending life.”
Fri
riedman: Next.
M: “What people
ople think
thin
th
ink
in
k really
real
re
ally
al
ly matters.
mat
atte
ters. It is
te
is embarrassing
emba
em
bar
ba
rrassi
to have
to write these
ese words.
wor
ords
d . Yet
Yet the words
wor
wo
rds
s are
e no
no longer
lon
o ge
ger
r obvious.
obvi
They
are not obvious
we,
ious to the
the
h formers
for
o me
mers and
and
n shapers
sha
hape
ha
ers of
of Jewry because
be
who form the
e corpus
s of ideas
ide
deas
as of
f theology
theo
th
olo
logy
gy [1:46:00]
[1:
:46
6:00] and
and ideology
over the last
st
t thirty
y years,
yea
ars
s, behave
beha
be
have
ha
ve as
as if
if people
pe
eop
ple were
e secondary
s
and actions primary,
We did
pr
rimary, and
and perhaps
per
er
rha
haps
ps they
the
hey
y were
we
ere for a time.
ti
im
ime.
not invite the shapers
shape
pers and
pe
d movers
mov
over
ers
er
s to our
our turf. We
We eagerly
eage
invaded theirs.
irs. We
e led
led them to believe
bel
elieve that in
n their
their distance
d
from the life
fe of Jewish
Jewis
ish
is
h intellect,
inte
in
t ll
llect
t, from
fro
om Jewish
Jewi
Je
wish ideas, in their
wi
remove from the soul of Judaism,
and should do
Ju
uda
dais
ism,
is
m, they
they
y could
co
whatever would
uld secure a worthy Jewish present and a viable
vi
vision of a Jewish future. They looked to us for ideas, and we
talked to them of money and how to spend it.”
102
Herbert A. Friedman: Who’s the “us”? “They looked...” Who’s
they, and who’s us?
M: Leaders.
Herbert A. Friedman: “They” are the shapers and movers. They’re
the money men.
en. [1:47:00] They’re
They’
y’re
e the
he entrepreneurs.
. They’re
Th
the
lay leaders out there. “They looked
“Us”
loo
oke
ked
d to us.” Who are “us”?
“u
are...Us are
the
e the
e thinkers,
thi
hink
nker
nk
ers,
er
s, the
the intellectuals,
int
ntelle
lect
le
ctua
ct
uals
ua
ls,
ls
, the
the academics,
acad
rabbis. People
ple who
who like
lik
ike
ik
e you
yo who
wh
ho are
are
e lay
y leaders
lead
ader
ad
e s turning
t rnin into
tu
thinkers. So
o “they” looked
l ok
lo
oked
e to
to “us”
“u
us”
s for
or ideas.
ide
deas
de
s.
F: Is he condemning,
against
nd
demning,
, he’s
he’
’s condemning...he’s
co
ond
ndem
emni
em
ning
ni
ng.
ng
...h
.he
.h
e’s
s speaking
speaking
g out
o
his kind that
at they didn’t
did
dn’
n’t
t work
work with
wit
ith
h the
th leaders...?
lea
le
aders...?
?
see
whom
Friedma
ma
an: No,
No,
o no, no,
o, let’s
let’s go on.
on
n. You’ll
Yo
s
he’s speaking
ng against.
t. And
And “we”,
“we”
”, the
the academics,
aca
cade
demi
de
mics, the rabbis,
mi
ra
the
intellectual
l lay leaders, the
the few
few of us,
us,
s, we talked to them about
money and how
ow to spend it,
it how to raise money and how to
allocate money. We should have been talking to them about ideas,
that’s what he’s saying. Go head.
103
M: “They had power, and we imagined ourselves impotent, so when
they invited us to join them, that is exactly what we did,
forgetting that if all we had to offer was a pale imitation of
the resources they already had, they would not have wanted us or
needed to invite us. They did not know how to ask the questions,
and we did not hear the question they did not ask. [Friedman
laughs], the
e only
onl
n y question we
e might
mi
igh
g t have able to answer
ans
nswe with
some authority.
ity. We were too enamored
enam
mored with the trappings,
trapping
[1:48:00] so
o we lost
lost our
our voice.
voi
oice
ce.
ce
. We answered
ans
nswe
ns
were
we
red
re
d other
othe
ot
her
he
r questions,
ques
questions whose
already
hose answers
answer
an
ers
er
s were
we
alr
lre
eady
dy known,
kno
now
wn,
, questions
q es
qu
esti
t ons that
mattered but
t that did
di
id not
not require
requir
re
re us to
to answer
answ
an
wer
e them. We
W behaved
like directors
or
rs of agencies,
agen
ag
enci
en
cies
es,
es
, asked
a ke
as
ked
d for
fo
or money,
mone
mo
ey, competed
compete
ed for money,
and offered nothing
nothing of
f what
wha
at we knew,
kne
new,
w, pretended
pr
ret
tend
nde
ed to be
e
sophisticated,
ed,
, lost our
ou
ur nerve,
n rv
ne
rve,
e our
e,
our sense
sen
ense
en
e of
of self.”
Friedma
ma
an: Now
Now
o comes a,
a, the world, the
the shaking
shaki
paragraph. We’re now, we’re
we’r
we
’r
re reaching
reachi
hing the
hi
the conclusion.
con
onclusion.
M: “Ideas come
ome first.
first Vision takes precedence.
precedence The educated
edu
heart is what creates and shapes our energies to act. Did not
the State of Israel begin in the minds of dissatisfied
intellectuals? Was it not born as an idea? Was it not shaped by
104
first class minds? Long before there was a Jewish state, there
was the idea of a Jewish state, and there would never have been
a Jewish state without that idea, an idea mostly talk, but what
a conversation, and what an impact.”
F: “So it is with the great movements of every age. They start
in our minds
s not
not
o in our bellies.
bellie
ies. [Unclear
[Un
Unclear word] [1:49:00]
[1:4
:49:
the
communists and the federations alike,
ali
lik
ke, not in our bank accounts,
and when intellectuals
telle
ect
ctua
uals
ua
ls are
are responsible
res
espo
pons
po
nsible
ns
le for
for events
eve
vent
nts
nt
s it is
i because
they develop
aspire
p ideas
ide
eas that
tha
hat
ha
t are
ar compelling,
co
omp
mpe
elli
ling,
, not
not
t because
b ca
be
caus
u e they
th
to positions
s of power.
powe
er.
r The
The
h seductive
seduc
cti
t ve attraction
att
tra
ract
tio
i n of high
hig office
perverts the
e far greater
gre
reat
re
ate
at
er power
pow
ower
e that
tha
hat intellectuals,
inte
in
tell
te
ll
lec
ctu
tuals, who
who do not
deny themselves,
lv
ves, might
mig
ght
t exercise.”
exe
erc
cis
ise.
e ”
M: “So there
e is the
e advice. Do not
not be
be other
other than
th
han what
what you are.
In this context,
text, let
let those
tho
h se with
h ideas
id
remain
n true
tru
rue to their
t
hearts, their
ir minds, their
the
heir
ir intellects.
int
tell
llects.
t . We
We are
ar a people to whom a
book is an event, a rare insight,
for celebration.
ins
nsig
ight
ig
ht, an occasion
ht
occasion
cc
cele
Let me refer
r back to Abraham Heschel,
Heschel who in the late 1950s put
forth an intellectual heritage still not adequately interpreted
or understood. His monumental intellectual achievement of that
period received no hearing, either then or later. As I said
105
earlier, it was during the 1960s that he became a public figure,
and gained a vast and impressive hearing, but that was not for
[1:50:00] his distinctive intellectual contribution. I cannot
blame him, but I think we would be better off today had he
pursued in his last years those lines of thought and modes of
reflection that in a few brief years yielded Man is Not Alone
and God in Search
Sea
arc
r h of Man. Heschel’s
Hesc
sche
he
el’
l s public power was
as vastly
v
greater in the 1960s than had it
t had
had been in the 1950s...”
1950s
Fried
dma
man:
n In
In the
th ‘60s,
‘6
60s
0s,
, he
he joined
joi
oin
oi
ned
d the
t e Civil
th
C vil Rights
Ci
Movement, went
ent down to
t Selma,
Sel
e ma
ma, walked
wa
alk
l ed arm
arm
m in
in arm
a m with Martin
ar
M
Luther King,
, and he
e was
was in the
the
h front
fro
ront
t row
row of
of public
pu
activity
act
and
what Neusner
r is saying
sayi
ing
g here
her
re is,
is he did
did a hell
hel
ell
el
l of a lot
lot better in
the ‘50s when
a
en he was writing
wri
riti
t ng those
tho
hose
se books.
boo
ooks
s. He
He was not
no
ot such
ot
s
great famous
s public
pub
ub
blic
c figure, but
but he was
as doing more
mor
ore
e than in the
‘60s, when he did
d become
beco
be
come
co
m a great
at public
public figure.
figu
ure
e.
M: “...But it was a different
and it yielded
differ
ren
ent
t kind
kind of power,
po
yi
different products,
roducts and all of them have now evaporated.
evaporate
He
represents the curious ambiguities of the third generation, its
risky compromise.”
106
F: “The plain fact is that the future of American Jewry
[1:51:00] will not be decided by the synagogues, the
federations, the centers, the day schools, the hospitals, the
American Jewish Committee, and the Anti-Defamation League.”
Herbert A. Friedman: Now, listen to the following two sentences.
F: “Nor will
l it be settled by raising
ra
ais
isi
ing another billion dollars
for the State
te of
f Israel,
Isr
srae
ael,
ae
l, nor
nor even
eve
ven
n the
e billion
bill
bi
llio
ll
ion
io
n dollars
dol
do
llars for Jewish
nd culture.
cu
ult
lture.
e. The
he future
fut
tur
ure
e of
of American
Ame
merica
can
ca
n Jewry
Jewr
Je
w y will
wi
education and
be
decided, for
Jews
r better or
o worse,
wor
o se
se, by
y the ideas
ide
eas that
tha
h t American
Americ
have and come
by
me
e to have
hav
ave
av
e about
abou
ab
out
ou
t their
t ei
th
eir
r future.
fu
utu
ture
re. It
re
t will
will be
e settled
s
what the fourth
ur
rth generation
gene
era
ati
ion
n manages
man
anag
ages
ag
es to
to achieve,
ach
hie
eve
e, by way
wa
ay of a set
of ideas. We
and that
e of
of the third
th
hir
ird
d generations
gene
ge
nera
ne
rati
ra
tion
ti
ons
on
s built
bu
uil
ilt
t a building,
build
di
ding
was important
under
nt to
o do.
o. It is time
tim
i e now
now to place a foundation
fou
oundat
that building.
does
ng. That
Tha
ha
at has
has yet to be
be done, and that
th
hat foundation
found
not take dollars,
llars, it takes
tak
akes
es work
k and
d ideas.”
id
dea
eas.
s.”
s.
Herbert A. Friedman: And that,
that ladies and gentlemen,
gentlemen is
i you. You
are the fourth generation; you got an infrastructure of there
that’s been built by the people ahead of you. What you have to
do now is fill in the ideas, [1:52:00] and the words, and the
107
dreams, and the thoughts to make it rich in creativity, rich in
Jewish creativity, cultural, artistic, intellectual, literary,
creativity, focused in the schools so the children will be
attracted, and that’s the future. There’s nobody gonna bother
you, there’s no anti-Semite, there’s no nothing, and there’s not
even much dual loyalty problem. You’re free to do what you wanna
do. Now, you
u wanna
wan
a na keep talking
talkin
ing about
a ou
ab
out survival, survival,
surv
rviv
survival, survival,
urvival, that’s fine, go ahead, and you will
wil not be
exercising your full
part
full potential.
pot
oten
enti
en
tial
ti
al.
al
. Survival
Surviv
Su
ival
iv
al is
is crucial,
cruc
cr
uci
uc
ial, it’s
i
of it. We’re
of
e ready
rea
ady for
or the
he next
nex
xt step.
step
ep. We’re
We’
We
’re
e on
o the
the
h threshold
thr
the next generation.
go
neration.
. [1:53:00]
[1:
:53
5 :0
:00] You’re
You’re
e gonna,
go
onn
nna,
, you’re gonna
go
halfway into
long.
o that next
next generation.
gen
ener
en
erat
er
a io
ion.
n. You’re
You
ou’r
re gonna
gonn
go
na live
e that
t
Halfway into
of
o that next
ne
ext
t century,
cen
ntu
ury
ry, I mean.
mea
me
an.
. So
So you
yo
ou got a lot
l
time, in which
ich
h to create.
crea
ate
te.
. And
And begin
begi
be
gin
gi
n with
wi h the
the school
l system,
sy
‘cause that’s
link
’s the
th
he only
on
k you
you have
have to
to guarantee
guaran
nte
tee
e about
abou your
kids feeling
you
g the same
sam
ame
e way
w y you do.
wa
do Get that done!
don
ne! And after
a
get that done,
ne, the world’s
wor
orld
or
ld’s
ld
’s
s your oyster.
oyster
t r. Get
Get richer, get
ge more
secure, three
cars, three
ee homes, three
e mortgages,
mor
ortg
tgag
tg
ages, three
ag
th
thre wives,
you know...
M: 350,000 dollars.
108
Herbert A. Friedman: [laughs] Three-fifty. Uh, you’ll do all
that. That’ll all happen. You make Israel strong, secure, get
past, get her past the wars. And, at the same time, you
concentrate on building something here, ‘cause it’s obvious
you’re not gonna move to Israel in your millions. It’s clear as
a bell. So at least if you’re gonna stay here, you build a
great, [1:54:00]
here. Public
4:0
00]
0 creative, Jewish
Jew
ewis
is
sh machinery
ma
Publ
Pu
education for
or adults, you gotta
gott
ta create
create what the Germans
German call
volksschule,
, a folk,
folk
fo
lk,
lk
, a people’s
peop
pe
ople
op
le’s
le
’s high
high
ig school.
scho
sc
hool
ho
ol.
ol
. Good
Good one! Et
cetera, et cetera.
I am
ceter
ra. And
nd I am
am convinced
co
onv
nvi
ince
ced you
you can
can do it. And
A
convinced that
hat all you
you
o need
nee
e d is the
the
h vision,
vis
isio
is
on, and
and
n you have
hav a right
to demand vision
is
sion from
fro
rom
ro
m your
your
ur leaders,
lea
e de
ders
rs, your
rs
your rabbi,
rab
abbi
bi, your
bi
r executive
e
director, those
ho
ose two,
, Jewish
Jew
wis
sh civil
civi
ci
vil
vi
l servants.
se
erva
ant
ts. Your
Your rabbi
rab
bbi is a
civil servant
nt of the Jewish
Jew
ewis
i h people.
peop
pe
ople
op
le. He doesn’t
le
doe
oes
sn’t know
w any
an more
about God than
han you
you and
and I do!
do!
o He’s
He’
e’s
s your
your civil servant.
ser
erva
vant. The
va
executive director
irector
r is
is your
y ur civil
yo
il servant.
servant. And
An
nd you
yo have the right
to demand of
the lay
leader,
f those two
wo help
hel
elp
p for
f r yourself,
fo
yourse
elf
lf,
, you’re
yo
l
it’s like that’s
hat’s the triangle.
trian
ngl
gle.
e. It’s
It’
t’s as
s though
though the chair’s
chai
sitting on three stools...the
stools
the stool is sitting on three
thre legs,
[1:55:00] and uh, and uh, there’s no limit to what you can do.
Nobody can stop you! Or, you’re gonna sit around, and you’re
gonna wear a baseball cap, and you’re gonna chew gum, and you’re
109
gonna look at the television, and you’re gonna be a couch
potato! Heh, the choice is yours! I think you got all the stuff
in the world to make that 21st century a golden age in America.
Okay. That’s it. [applause] Let’s go eat lunch.
END OF AUDIO FILE [1:55:47]
110

C-7415 to C-7416 Transcriptions Friedman, Herbert A.

Transcription

Similar documents

Uptighty Whiteys - Cleetus Friedman

Live in 3, 2 and 1… - Moorestown Eye Associates

the 5-move workout swimsuit models swear by

it`s the world`s most difficult job.

Centrale Magazine - 18 >> Dear friends of the Jewish community

November 22nd

S ANC TU AR Y - reformjudaismmag.net

SELF- REFLECTION FOR CONFLICT PROFESSIONALS

THE SHOSHANA S. CARDIN JEWISH LEADERSHIP INSTITUTE