Class 4 Andres Serrano Interview - Rebels and Scandal in Art History

Andres Serrano
Author(s): Anna Blume and Andres Serrano
Source: BOMB, No. 43 (Spring, 1993), pp. 36-41
Published by: New Art Publications
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Andres
Serrano
Anna
Blume
known
In 1989 Andres
after
Serranobecameinternationally
attention
to hiswork.Helmswas
SenatorJesseHelmsbrought
hadgoneto a showwhich
thatNEAgovernment
money
outraged
exhibited
Serrano's"Piss-Christ:"
a photograph
ofa crucifix
inSerrano'sownurine.Hissubsequent
workhas
submerged
ofejaculatedsperm,
included
ofthetrajectory
photographs
oftheKuKluxKlan.
homelesspeopleandmembers
ofdead bodiesraisequestions
Serrano'srecentphotographs
Atfirst
these
aboutdeathandart,artandprovocation.
sight,
makeonewonder
howandwhen
largecolorcibachrome
prints
andwhySerranomadetheseimages.Toenlargeonthese
ofprocessandintention.
issuesI haveaskedquestions
Awkward
andmutualhostility
ensuedintheprocess.
moments
I supposethatis thesuccessofSerrano's
hisability
to
work,
wasgiveninresponsetothat
provoke.Thisinterview
itwasmeanttogivethespectator
someplacetogo
provocation;
withtheirquestions.
February2, 1993
Anna Blume: How didyougetaccess to themorgue,to dead bodies?
Andres Serrano: A greatdeal ofluckwas involved.I had theidea to photograph
John
andJaneDoes manyyearsago. I founditwasn'tthateasy,and thenlastyear,I developed
thecontacts.I'ma greatbelieverin Providence,
and maybetherewas a reasonI was able
to do theworknowand notthen.
fromthefamiliesofthepeoplethatdied,or weretheyall
AB: Did youneed permission
contacts?
peoplewithout
withthepeopleinvolvedis throughthe
AS: No, theyhavecontacts.Myrelationship
inchargeofthemorgue,a well-known
forensicexpert.He gave me
pathologist
to photograph
themwiththeunderstanding
thatthepeopleare disguised
authorization
and notidentified.
AB: Whenyousaydisguised,didyouactuallyplacetheclothoverthepeople'sfaces?
AS: Yes.
AB: So youchose theredclothforthemanwhodied ofpneumoniaand thewhitecloth
fortheblackman?
AS: Butitwasn'ta manwitha redcloth,it'sa woman. It'scalled"Infectious
Pneumonia,"
butI call her"TheWomanin Red."
AB: That'sa mistakethatone wouldthinkis hardto make.Andyet,notonlygender,but
racewasn'tobvious. Ifyoudie byfire,itchangesyourskincolor.Therewas one picture
ofa womanshotbythepolice. Her racewas a questionin mymind.
AS: You mighthavethought"TheWomanin Red"was a manbecause she's a littlehairy.
The burnvictimwhowas totally
blackis a whiteman. Therecouldbe a general
thatthereare a lotofpicturesofblackpeopleintheshow. Notso. There
misconception
are onlytwoblackpeopleintheshow. The manwhohas a tattoois a whitemanwho
whiteskinbeginsto turnblackand blue and red,and in
drowned.As a resultofdrowning,
Anna Blume teaches art historyat the New
School For Social Research and is currently
writinga book on the cult of saints and images
in response to death.
"The Morgue (Knifedto Death II)," 1992, Cibachrome,silfcone,plexiglass, wood frame,49.5" x 60".
All photos, courtesyPaula Cooper Gallery.
Spring 1993
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37
his case, itstartedtogetgreenand purple.
theshow,notjust
AB: Sincecoloris an issue throughout
and racialissues haveshownup in
butalso racially,
aesthetically,
yourworkbefore,was thisinyourmindwhenyoueditedforthe
aboutwhichbodiesto photograph?
show,thinking
thesepeopleafter
AS: In a mannerofspeaking.I photographed
themomentofdeath. I neverknewthemas humanbeings. I
neverknewwhatlanguagestheyspoke,whattheirreligiousor
politicalbeliefswere,howmuchmoneytheyhad,orwhothey
loved. AllI knowaboutthemis thecause ofdeath. And,as they
say,youcannotjudge a bookbyitscover.The womanyou
to as notknowingwhethershe was actuallyblack,is a
referred
woman.She's a blackwoman.
bleachedblonde,brown-skinned
Butshe's been inthemorgueforovertwomonthsbecause she's a
to decomposeand ifyou
JaneDoe, and as a result,she's starting
lookreallyclosely,thereare patchesofwhiteskin. I asked the
thatthereis whiteskinunderblackskin.
doctorand he confirmed
A teacherofhis once tooka verythinsliceofskinoffa cadaverand
showeditto his studentsand said,"Thisis thethicknessof
racism."
AB: Whatmaterialsdidyoubringintothemorgue?Werethey
yourownbackdrops?
AS: The seconddayofshooting,I realizedthatI onlywantedto
a tripodand a
use a blackbackdrop,myownflashequipment,
MamiyaRB 67 camera.
AB: Whydidyouchoose toworkwiththeblackbackdrop?
look. Foryearspeople
AS: I wantedthemto havea uniformed
and said,"Where'syourstudio?"But
havecome to myapartment
at thisstageofmylife,thestudiois anywhereI makeit. The world
at largeis mystudio.Andbyusinga devicesuchas a black
I'mable to alienatethesubjectfromitsenvironment
background,
and putitintoa studiocontext.Also,I findblacka very
color,and inthecase ofthemorgue,itseems to
inspirational
suggesta voidwhichis appropriate.
AB: Did youactuallytouchthedead bodies? Did youmovethem,
or didyouhaveassistance?
AS: I didn'ttouchthemtoooften.Theywouldtellme at the
morgue,ifa bodyhas notbeen autopsied,and is a matterofa
thendon'ttouchanything.Butafterthe
policeinvestigation,
youwant,justbe suretoweartwo
autopsy,youcan touchanything
muchleftthebodiesas theywere,
pairsofgloves. But,I pretty
exceptto movean occasionalarmhereor there.I wantedformy
the
handto be feltas littleas possible. Exceptforputting
on thosefaces,I lefteveryoneas I foundthem.
blindfolds
AB: You coveredtheeyes ofsome ofthepeopleto preserve
buttheshowseems to focuson eyes or orificesor
anonymity,
wounds. Ifyoulookat each image,yourhandis notpresentin
termsofyoutouchingthings,butitis verymuchpresentinwhat
youchose to photograph.
AS: Andas a result,I choose to lettheaudiencesee whatI want
to. This is whatan artistdoes.
fromwhichthesewere
AB: Weretheremany,manyphotographs
edited?
AS: Therewerehundredsofphotographs.
AB: Did youhavea consciousfocuson eyes,ears,mouths,
wounds:orifices?
entire
I photographed
AS: Notinthebeginning.In thebeginning,
on
sectionsofthebody. As timewenton,I feltthatconcentrating
a detailcouldtellme morethanthewhole. Itwas a progression
to a close range.
goingfrommid-range
AB: Whatdidfocusingon thedetailstellyoumoreabout?
AS: Rightnow,I wantto simplify
myart. Andfocusingon details
and makeitmoreelegantand more
helpsme to reduceeverything
of
direct.I don'tthinkyoucan be moredirectthanthephotograph
theeye inthisshow,whichis hacked. This manwas killedbyhis
stabwoundsall overhis body. You can't
wifewithaboutfifteen
see whatI saw,buttheeye tellsyoueverything.
AB: Whenyousay,"Hackedto Death,"itremindsme thatthe
inyourwork,or theyhave
titlesare curious.Titlesare important
been inthepast. "Hackedto Death"impliesa violentcutting.At
othertimesyoumightsay,"Knifedto Death,"whichhas a different
connotation.In some cases yousay"BurnedbyFire,"whichis
almostBiblical,and theone that'smoreclinicalis "BurnVictim."
How do youaccountforvariations?
AS: It'sjustpersonal.WhileI havetriedtobe accuratewiththe
or medical.
causes ofdeath,theyare byno meansscientific
38
AB: They'renotthetermsthatappearedon thedeathcertificates?
to be descriptive
AS: No, notnecessarily.I thinkit'simportant
and poeticat thesametime.I don'ttakethesepicturesas a
clinicianor as a technicalphotographer
workingin a lab. Since
doingmywork,I've seen picturesina bookofforensicpathology,
and thepicturesare hardcore,gruesome,veryclinicaland
is flat,there'sno artinvolved,
detached.The lighting
justtechnical
Myapproachis morepersonaland subjective.
representation.
aboutthese
AB: What'ssomewhatengagingand disturbing
imagesis thatthey'reveryseductive.Largecibachromesof
particular
bodypartsremindme oftheaestheticsofpornography,
whichalso focuseson bodyparts,usuallygenitalia.Howare these
frompornography?
different
and
is meantto titillate
AS: Howare theysimilar?Pornography
sense. These are not. I can'timagineanyone
exciteintheprurient
gettinghornybehindthiswork.These are notsexualimages.
ofa rosary
Theydon'tdevalueor degrade.There'sa photograph
I had
arounda penis. Andgivenmyownbackgroundas an artist,
to takethatimage. I don'tknowwhoputthatcrucifix
there,but
I've been toldthatina hospital,theywillputa rosaryarounda
I
bodyonce ina while. But,giventhenatureofthephotograph,
don'tknowhowyoucouldcall itsexual.
devalueand degrade. But
AB: Sexualimagesdon'tnecessarily
forme in
betweenyourworkand pornography
thereis a similarity
ina
thebodyand displaythesefragments
thewayyoufragment
seductiveand decontextualized
way.
to maybea feelingof
AS: I wouldsaythatyou'rereferring
butI would
a sensuoussurface,inthesepictures,
sensuality,
is seductiveinthesamewaymywork
disagreethatpornography
is crudeand artless.I thinkyou're
is. Mostpornography
whichcan be very
withadvertising
confusing
pornography
seductive.
crosspathsininteresting
and advertising
AB: Pornography
ways
fromboth.
fromthemorguetakesomething
andyourphotographs
butnotsensuous. Yourimagesdrawus inand
Theyare seductive,
at a certainlevel. You bringus close,veryclose
theyare beautiful
to detailsofdead bodies,whichsetsoffan alarmoffeelingand
butall thisstopson thesurfaceandwe are leftas voyeurs
thinking,
ratherthanas witnessesofdeath. I wonderas I lookat the
to do withthisshow,whatare
whatare youtrying
photographs
bodies?
with
dead
doing
you
AS: The morgueis a secrettemplewherefewpeopleare allowed.
we willall be letinone day. I thinkyou'reupsetand
Paradoxically,
is
confusedthatI've broughtyouthereprematurely.
Myintention
up toyou.
onlyto takeyouto thissacredplace. The restis entirely
withfresheyesand an openmind.I want
I exploredthisterritory
theaudienceto do thesame and to see it'sa processofdiscovery
forme too.
AB: Discoveryofwhat?
as a human
AS: DiscoveryofwhatI can findthereformyself
with
an agenda
set
out
I
don't
as
an
artist.
and
particularly
being
formyworkexceptto makeitsomewhataesthetically
pleasingand
charged.
emotionally
AB: Andtheseare aesthetically
pleasing?
AS: Absolutely.
AB: Whatdidyoudiscoverin makingthephotographs?
AS: I feltthatI was veryluckytobe able toenterintothisprivate
notopenforlaymento
domain,a secretarenathatis normally
inmuchthesame wayas
was
That
gratifying
personally
explore.
ofKlanspeopleas a manwho'snotwhite,and
takingportraits
themtoworkwithme was.
challenging
withCoco Fusco thatyour
AB: You said inan interview
experiencewiththe"Piss Christ"and theresponseoftheNEA
broughtyouincontactwithmorepeople,thathad been one ofthe
Andinsomewaysithelpedlead to the
ofthecontroversy.
benefits
of
Man-homeless
peopleproject.Is thispartofthatdevelopment
work?
humanizing
your
AS: I'm at a pointnowwhereI've been able to enterintoall these
theadventure
somewhatclosed societies.Andforme sometimes,
is almost,butnotquite,as
ofgettingintothesesituations
as thework.Because itis an adventure.
interesting
AB: The onlyotherpictureI'veeverseen ofa personina morgue
was inJeanMarieSimon'sbookon Guatemala.She goes intothe
thebodyofsomeoneshe knowswho'sbeen
morgueto identify
ofa womanwho'sbeen
hackedto death. It'sa photograph
literally
to lookat. I trustthatSimon's
and it'sverydifficult
dismembered
to heightenmy
is towitnesssomething.She's trying
intention
BOMB
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Themorgueis a secrettemple.
"The Morgue (Jane Doe Killed by Police)/' 1992, Cibachrome,silteone,
plexiglass, wood frame,49.5" x 60".
Spring 1993
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39
aboutbothlifeand death. Andto somehowengagemy
sensibility
criticaland emotiveand humanresponse,and to acton that
outrage.I feelthatI am broughtto thefaceofoftenviolentdeaths
inyourwork.I feelconfronted
and thenleftthere.It'sveryhard
forme to trustthoseimagesor yourintention
because oftheway
they'rephotographed.
AS: Because youwantme to lead youbythehandand makeyou
feelliketheseare imagesthatyoucan see ina politicalor socialor
feminist
and ifI don'ttellyou
waythatwouldfitwithyourthinking
thenyoufeel
you'rerightor pointyouinthatdirection,
abandoned.
AB: Manyreligiousimagesor iconsseduce or no one willlookat
them.The projectofthechurchor theprojectoftheartistis in
somewaysto bringpeopleto theirimagesand I thinkyoudo that
well. Some ofyourearlierwork,likethe
verywell,remarkably
or theKlanphotographs
"Piss-Christ"
are icons. Theybringyouto
them,theykeepyouthereand theyengageyouinone wayor
another.They'reverysuccessfulthatway. Withthese
photographs
youprovokemycriticalmind.Butinthiscase,
I feelbroughtto bodilycarnageand leftthereas a
ultimately,
gratuitous
voyeur.You haveraisedthestakesinthese
ina waythatis different
fromyourpreviouswork.
photographs
You are photographing
thedead beyondtheirviolation.You have
enteredtherealmofthevoyeurand youhavebroughtall ofus
wholookat yourworkto thatsame place. Itis a difficult
terrain
whichon some levelsdemandsmorethanthespiritand propsof
an adventurer.
themorgueno differently
AS: I photographed
thanI photoor theKlan. Perhapsitis easierforyouto
graphed"Piss-Christ"
acceptthatworkbecause youfeelmorallysuperiorto it. Ifyou
don'tconsideryourself
a Catholicnora racistyoucan appreciate
theworkfroma comfortable
distancebecause youdon'thavethe
or involvement
or a personof
same investment
thata Christian
colorhas. Therefore,
of,say,
youracceptanceand understanding
theKlanpicturesis verydifferent
fromsomeonewhohas
ofracialdiscrimination.
I remember
when
experiencedtheeffects
I firststartedthatwork,a friend
ofminesaid,"These lookso
noble,theyalmostlooklikerecruitment
postersfortheKlan." As
as thatthoughtwas,I had tograpplewiththeidea that
repugnant
forsome,thesehoodedfigureswouldappearas heroicknights
ratherthansymbolsofhatredand oppression.So as muchas I
dislikewhattheKlanstandsfor,I had to putaside mypersonal
theminthespiritoftoleranceand
feelingsand photograph
I
think
this
compassion.
surpriseda lotofpeopleincludingthe
ciriticswhoare drawnto thework.ButI havealwayssaid thatI
don'tsee anything
artand thatI look
wrongwithprovocative
forward
to thedaywhenI can makeworkthatwillevendisturb
me.
ButwhenyousaidI'vebrought
youtoa pointandleftyouthere,it
makesmethinkofwhysomepeopleneedreligion:Theyneedto
knowwhytheyliveandwherethey're
goingwhentheydie. Thoseof
us whoare notsureareleftinlimbowithnoone tocomfort
us and
thatcan be veryfrightening.
The problemis notthatI manipulate
butthatI don'tmanipulate
enough.I letyoudrawyourown
conclusions.
February
5, 1993
AB: You'vetalkedaboutBunuelas beingimportant
toyourwork.
AS: I feelan affinity
withBunuelas wellas otherartistsofSpanish
descentwhoare attracted
toviolenceand passion,whetherit'sa
passionforlivingor fordying.
AB: Thereis a greatdeal ofaestheticviolencein manyofBuñuel's
filmsbutthere'salso an elementofsubversion.In Goyaas well,
forthatmatter.
AS: Buñueldeals withreligionsubversively,
he's completely
sacrilegious.Andyet,thisis theworkofa manwhoholdssome
embraces. He
religiousbeliefs,ifnotall thatCatholicism
withthepeopleand
obviouslyhas a love/haterelationship
institutions
he criticizes.Personally,
I am drawnto theaesthetics
oftheChurchbutnotto theChurchitself.But,I don'tgo outof
forme to
mywayto criticizetheChurchbecause it'snotimportant
crusade. I thinkyoucan be subversive
justbyaskingtoomany
questions.
AB: Do youfeelyou'readdressingtaboosinthemorgue?
AS: Some peoplewouldliketo see thisremainhallowedground,a
placewherewe don'ttrespass.The idea ofdeathbeingopenedfor
is verydisturbing.Mostofus assumewe are goingtogo
scrutiny
40
gentlyintothatgood night.WhatI foundwhenI wentto the
morgueis thatmostofthesepeopletherediedtragic,violent
deaths.
AB: We are constantly
on deathand ituponus. We
trespassing
haveso manyimagesofdeath,especiallyintheartcommunity
notonlythemanypeoplewhohavediedandwhosebodieswe
havewatchedbecomedecimated,
on
butalso innewspaper,
television.We'reconstantly
seeingimagesofdeath. How do
thesediffer
fromthose?
AS: Some peoplefeelreallyshockedand outragedthatI've
presenteditso directly.These peopleactliketheyhaven'tseen
deathbefore.Whatyoutakeforgranted,othershavenottakenso
is thatthoseimageson television
are
lightly.The difference
are meant
movingand theseare not. Myphotographs
constantly
tobe seen on thewallsofa galleryor museum.Theyengagethe
viewerina dialoguethatis difficult
toescape. You can turnthe
pages ofa newspaperor flipa channeleasierthanyoucan walkout
ofa gallery.The curiousthingis thatmostpeoplewhohaveseen
thisworkare compelledto stay.
AB: Earlier,yousaid thatfocusinginon detailtellsyoumoreand
allowsformoreelegance. Do yousee thedetailas a clear
articulation?
AS: As artistsmature,theystartto leavethingsoutoftheir
morerefined,
morefinished.
pictures.The workbecomessimpler,
thatis whatI am striving
forat thisstageofmy
Certainly,
This desireto sayas muchas possiblewithan
development.
economyofvisualtools.
AB: Details,especiallyinregardto thebody,makeme thinkof
theHostinChristian
dogma. Thereis transubstantiation,
meaning
thattheHostgoes frominertmattertobeingthelifeor thebodyof
Christ.It'sa deeplyfeltmystery
and is based on a partbecoming
thewhole. Sincea lotofyourworkinthepasthas been based on
Christian
and theseimagesare aboutdeathina very
iconography,
realway,is theresomething
aboutthenotionoftransubstantiation
inthem?
AS: Well,I won'tsaythatI believeina soul. But,I do believethat
inthesepeople. Forme,
I've capturedan essence,a humanity
theseare notmerecorpses. Theyare notinanimate,
lifeless
is
of
I
There
a
sense
a
that
fromthem.
life,
get
objects.
spirituality
This is an important
pointforme. Thereis lifeafterdeath,ina
way.
AB: Workingwiththesepeoplewhohaveoftendiedviolent
withthememotionally?
deaths,do youcome intoa relationship
Was therea conflict
betweenencountering
their"humanity,"
as
theiranonymity?
yousay,and maintaining
withthepeoplethatI photograph
often
AS: Myrelationship
beginsaftermyworkis finished.WhileI am shooting,I am more
concernedwithmechanicalquestionsratherthanmetaphysical
ones. I thinkwe can encountertheirhumanity
whilemaintaining
theiranonymity.
AB: Thereis a questionofethicsinvolvedwiththesephotos.Did
youstrugglewiththatat all?
AS: Therewas neveranymoraldilemmaforme as towhetheror
notI shouldphotograph
thesepeople. Thereis a finelinebetween
and exploitation
and I havealwaysbeen preparedto
exploration
walkitand indoingso, putmyself
on theline. Lifewouldbe
boringand artwouldbe dead ifwe didn'ttakerisks. Ifitwas a
matterofchoosingwhetheror notI shouldexplorethissubject
or respectprivacyand notdo it,I neveronce thought
thatI
matter,
shouldnotdo it.
AB: Do youwantto upsetpeople?
I thinkmorepeoplefeelmovedbythis
AS: No, notintentionally.
workthanupset. But,that'swhathappenswhenyoudo workthat
is emotionally
itpolarizespeopleon bothsides ofthe
provocative,
fence.
AB: Do youthinkyourownbackground
as a manofcoloraffects
to access and then
yourdecisiontogo intoplacesthatare difficult
comebackoutas AndresSerrano?
AS: I'd be a liarifI said thatI don'tgetsatisfaction
outofbeing
able to do thethingsthatI do.
AB: In themidstofall thisI wonderdidthisprojectchangeyour
to death?
relationship
AS: In a way,it'smademe moreat ease withtheidea ofdying.
AB: How so?
AS: Itain'tso bad. I remember
whenI photographed
theguywho
had been hackedtodeath,a doctorat themorguelookedat him
and said,"Poorbastard,at leasthe won'tsuffer
anymore."A lotof
BOMB
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end
us feardeathbecause we envisionthishorrible,
unimaginable
on a
to ourexistence.We dreadit. Whenyoudeal withsomething
yourfears
daytodaybasis youlearnto fearitless. You demystify
and itbecomeseasierto overcomethem
therewas a tradein
intheFourthCentury,
AB: Historically,
relics,partsofpeoplewhohad diedusuallyviolently.
Theywere
highlycoveted.Fromthepointofviewofthepopulaceat thetime,
somehowhad a healing
itwas thoughtthatthosefragments
function.
Thoughyourimagesdo havea shockvalue,do youhope
thattheyhavesome sortofhealingpoweras well?
whohavehad recentdeathsin
AS: I've spenttimewithfriends
theirfamiliesand theyseemedto see theworkina waythatother
peoplemaynotbe able to. Ithas a specialmeaningforthem.It is
partofa healingprocess,comingtogripswiththeloss ofa loved
one.
was the
thatwas themostinteresting
AB: Forme,thephotograph
had
imageofthehandswiththeinkmarkswherefingerprints
animatedaboutit. Couldyoutalk
been taken.Thereis something
aboutwhatyoulearnedaboutthisindividual?Whyyouchose to
himinthatway?
photograph
AS: These are probablythehandsofa criminal.He's been
him,the
bythepoliceand whenI photographed
fingerprinted
the
handswereactuallygoingintheoppositedirection.I inverted
to Michelangelo's
imagesbecause I wantedto makethereference
ofGod reachingouttoAdam. So, theyassumea religious
painting
personaandgesture.I likehimreachingoutindeathbecause
maybehe couldn'tdo itwhenhe was alive.
her
AB: The womanwhohas diedofinfectious
pneumonia,
has the
nose,saturatedredclothon herforehead,
prominent
aestheticlookofa painting.How didyoumakecompositional
decisions?
womanintheshow.I initially
AS: Forme,she is themostbeautiful
foundherveryrepulsive.She had diedofAIDS, herhairwas very
thin.Herthroatwas enlarged.Fora fewdaysI avoided
her. Atsome point,therewereno newsubjects,I
photographing
thiswomanor some ofthe
had a choiceofeitherphotographing
bodiesinthefreezer.So, I did decideto lookat
maggotinfested
heragain,and I had to discovera wayto makeherbeautifuland I
thinkI've succeeded. She is a painting.A Bellini.
AB: Do youhavea sense ofwhereyou'regoingtogo, whatthis
has givenyouandwhereyouare goingto takeit?
AS: (laughter)I do and I don't. I have no easy answersforyou.
"The Morgue (Fatal MeningitisID," 1992, Cibachrome,silicone, plexiglass, wood frame, 49.5" x 60".
Spring1993 41
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