EXHIBIT ~ 10, Three letters from Attorney JACK RIMLAND

p':.
-~g
IN THR CIRCUIT COURTOF COOKCOUNTY,
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
ALSTORYSI~ON,
Petitioner,
VS.
PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF ILL.,
PETTTIONER'S
SUPPORTING APPEWDIX
CONTAINING:
EXHIBIT ~ 9,
Grand Jury Testimony of THOMAS
McCANN
EXHIBIT~ 10, Three letters
from Attorney JACKRIMLAND
i'L
1
3
IN
RE:
JOHN
DOE
INVESTIGATION
(
GJ#
S
BEFORE
THE
7
GRAND
JURY
FEBRUARY
10
TRANSCRIPT
11
ABOVE
ENTITLED
12
FEBRUARY
A.D.,
MATTER
OF
COOK
COUNTY
1999
OF
ON
3~63
THE
TESTIMONY
22ND
TAKEN
DAY
OF-
1999.
13
14
15
PRESENT:
MR.
THOMAS
ASSISTANT
GAINER,
STATE'S
ATTORNEY
16
17
REPORTED
CERTIFIED
18
ILLINOIS
19
20
LIST
21
THOMAS
22
23
24
25
OF
WITNESSES:
McCANN
BY
ANNETTE
E.
SHORTHAND
LICENSE
FAKLIS
REPORTER
NO.
084
002318
IN
THE
L'`
1
THE FOREPERSON: Would you raise
2
(Witness
4
MR. GAINER:
The
5
right
6
the State's
7
or any other
8
documents or transcripts
9
prosecuted
to subpoena
duly
Grand
and question
Attorney
hand,
by the
sworn.)
Jury
a Bill
and to obtain
have
the
against
whom
of Indictment,
and examine
relevant
State's
does
any person
is seeking
person,
10
any
to the matter being
Attorney.
THOMAS McCANN,
11
having
12
testified
been
first
as
duly
was
examined
and
EXAMINATION
BY
15
MR.
GAINER:
Q.
16
sworn,
follows:
1
14
Grand
State
your
A.
Tom
18
Q.
M-c-C-a-n-n?
A.
Yes.
Q.
It
1
20 )
name please
for
the
record
and the
Jury.
17
19
right
please.
3
13
your
21
so everyone
22
me,
just
23
McCann.
is
real
here
let
can hear
me know
You are
24
A.
25
Q.
- Yes.
What
important
year?
and
a student
that
you.
I
will
at
you
And if
talk
talk
real
loud
you can't
hear
louder.
Northwestern
University?
1
A.
Seni·or
2
Q·
And when you live
3
.
dorm on Orrington Street
A.
Yes.
5
Q-
And when you live
in
Park
Ridge,
with your parents,
A.
Yes.
8
Q.
You plan
9
A.
Yes.
10
Q·
What's
11
A.
Journalism.
12
Q·
That would be your
13
A.
Yes.
14
Q·
Bach·elor
of A.rts
15
A.
Bachelor
of
16
Q.
Did you enrollin
17
1998, in the first
18
year
taught
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
And that
21
A.
.Special
Q·
So the
A.
Yes.
22
25
y-ou
live
to graduate
your
in the spring?
major?
degree?'.
or Science?
Science.
quarter
a- class
of the 1988/1999
by Professor
class
in September
of
academic
David Protess?
was entitled?
Topics,
Media
and
the
Death
Penalty.
23
24
in a
Illinois?
7
being
live
in Evanston; is that correct?
4
6
at school,·you
Penalty?
class
was called
Media and the
Death
*'
1
Q·
2
Septemb~r
the
class
you
ever
met
A.
Yes.
4
Q.
Had
Professor
Protess
6
A.
No.
7
Q.
Was
taken
it
your
9
Investigative
10
A.
At
11
Q.
Yes.
12
A.
No.
13
Q·
You did
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
Did
you
volunteer
semester
in
the
media
or
Yes
18
Q.
What
19
A.
The
20
Q
What
Media
22
and
It
death
role
in
24
was
wrong
25
the
A.
23
Q·
second
what
A.
21
first
time
in
late
class
in
the
from
to
continue
quarter
class
on
called
Journalism?
assignment
1
a
intention
second
17
the
before?
8
16
for
1998?
3
5
r
And
In
September?
eventually
take
to
that
class
though?
participate
and the
in
death\penalty
anyclass
class?
.
case
case
did
of
you
Death
is
was
penalty
for?
Porter.
this
Penalty,
a class
what
volunteer
Anthony
exactly
committed
And
point?
curriculum
what
was
on how the
cases
to,
if
everything
or
exactly
was
you
the
it
media
all
all
about?
can
play
a
if
th'ere
media
was
know,
is
role
about,
see
fine.
the
i`·
5
1
to
play?
2
A.
3
government.
4
lawyers
5
and,
A watch
And
and
you
8
some
9
after
it
do
the
Q·
11
undertook
12
shooting
things
So
with
a
way
know,
dog
with
about
probed
the
just
into
how
a
syste
work.
to
basics
watch
books
investigative
to
do
deaths
all
teach
of
senior
journalism
investigative
reporting,
would
be
doing
in
that
in
mind,
that
connection
of
Jerry
Yes.
14
Q.
The
crimes
and
sentenced
convicted
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q·
Did
that
assignment?
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q·
What
21
A.
.I
reviewed
the
original
with
22
reports,
23
cross-examination
24
and
25
investigative
William
of
in
A.
18
several
you
they
13
15
read
was
the
Like
their
jobs
graduation.
10
t.
to
of
we
done
And
students
roll.
journalists,
know,
6
7
dog
you
Hillard
for
review
the
reports
two
and
what
August
Anthony
151
you
1982
Green?
Porter
stood
death?
any
documents
did
you
main
read
taken
in
connection
review?
coroner's
reports,
testimony,
of
the
and'Marilyn
which
to
documents
Taylor,
with
is
the
opening
statements,
witnesses,
copies
back
Henry
of
in
the
police
Williams
old
late
80's.
·~
1
6
1
Q·
Who
2
A.
It
3
name
was
4
William
5
investigations
was
John
on
7
A.
Porter's
At
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
Aside
witnesses
13
transcripts,
14
Kenneth
16
but
17
closing
18
and
·22
I
since
another
man's
from
you
one
name
did
man's
was
some
earlier.
attorney,
in
the
I
think
his
name
late
80's?
transcript
of
·didyon
the
two
read
any
other
testimony?
I
I
was
the
mentioned,
think
it
William
read
part
think
so
I
long,
and
--
read
I
the
I
think
parts
read
of
the
his
name
his
testimony;
gpening
testimony
of
was
and
Henry
Williams
Taylor.
Doyle
the
he
they
case
time
arguments
A.
what
and
anyother
Q·
21
investigator,
this
the
Doyle.
found
defense
defense
that
A.
15
old
Flaxman.
Q.
12
reports?
whom?
Kenneth
9
investigative
Apparently,
For
19
an
Ridley.
Q.
was
those
Heath
6
8
20
prepared
was
the
fingerprints
.I
23
Q.
He
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
Did
at
believe
was.
I
was
you
fingerprint
Ken
just
a
the
Doyle
guy
remember
readany
- -
his
is
of
the
guythat
scene?
was
policeman,
or
the
I
don't
name.
that
other
right?
police
re me mbe r
1
testimony?
2
A.
3
officer
4
laying
5
lighting.
6
park
before
7
what
we
8
that
10
11
out
I
at
Q.
13
that
And
so
scene
the
of
the
pool
I did
re-enact
where
and
crime
the
the
crime
and
types
a diagram
so
of
the
we
knew
the
guy
part
them
that
of
the
did
the
the
Q.
And
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q·
Did
read
i nve s t i g a t i -on ?
diagram
from
the
testimony
of
A.
Yes.
20
Q·
And
21
A.
which
they
'William
Taylor,
in
24
things
the
testimony
you
read
any
of
by
you
Anthony
read
Because
trying
to
that
A.
read
a
the
of
alibi
set
said
earlier
Williams?
witness
Porter's
full
Henry
lawyers?
of
police
reports?
. Yes.
Q.
23
you
offered
19
·
of
re-enactment,
correct?
testimony
the
about.
are
You
15
25
testimony
everything.
Yes.
1
to
whole
A.
22
the
that,
talking
14
18
police
of
with
went
gave
the
about
dimensions
You
A.
of
the
were
the
part
talking
we
ran
looked
12
read
was
Q.
9
r
I
be
led
Yes.
as
a
to
And
you
watch
this
then
dog
and
look
conviction,
they
found
you
at
were
all
of
involve
the
right?
out
a
conclusion
is
1
) based
on
2
3
4
the
Q·
working
1 '
evidence.
So with
on
a
Yes.
5
Q.
And
6
A.
It
details
8
of
9
recanted
guilt
the
a "not
that
seemed
not
or
innocence
his
testimony.
Q.
And
11
A.
I believe
12
Q.
of
13
A.
Yes.
14
Q.
Who was
contact
that
with
Me,
17
Q.
When
so
I
we are
started
was?
reached
then
guilty"
yet.
It
was just
I wasn't
convince
right.
it
But
after
occurred
William
Taylor
11,
on Friday.
when?
was
the
December
first
person
of
this
team
to
to
be
make
Taylor?
talk
about
talking
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
Professor
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q.
Paul
about
Protess
Ciolino
the
the
is
is
team,
always
I
same
always
part
want
thing.
part
of
Okay?
of
the
the
team?
team,
right?
24
25
you
I.
19
23
then
you
until
William
A.
clear
mind,
1998?
16
18
in
conclusion
wasn't
10
15
that
conclusion?
A.
7
all
talk
A.
- He
to
William
wasn't
part
Taylor.
of
the
team
until
we
had
to
1
2
Q.
Was
he
doing
A.
No,
he
was
things
prior
to
talking
to
Taylor?
3
4
law
5
school
Q.
6
Lori
meeting
In
--
he
the
actually,
didn't
third
he
really
went
say
quarter,
it
to
one
anything.
was
D'Angelo?
A.
Yes.
8
Q.
Cara
9
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
Shawn
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
And
13
A.
Yes.
14
Q.
And
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
And
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
And
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
So
21
be
22
Rhodes-Pitts,
1
just
and
Okay.
7
23
other
LaBorgne,
Rubinsky?
Armbrust?
yourself,
in
was
the
the
D'Angelo,
and
A.
Yes.
24
Q·
And
25
A.
Yes,
the
was
cbrrect?
quarter,
by
Lori
Erica
dropped
out?
LaBorgne?
Rhodes-Pitts?
team
then
for
Armbrust,
our
purposes
Rubinsky,
will
McCann,
professor?
sometimes
he
that
second
replaced
Syandene
that
is
Ciolino?
part
of
the
team
at
the
start
of
10
1
William
Taylor.
2
3
Q.
to
Who is
4
A.
Me.
5
Q.
How did
6
A.
I received
7
Capital
8
his
member of
9
Sunday
you
do
the
team
to
talk
that?
his
Litigation
phone
Division
number
from
investigator
phone number and address,
the
and he gave me
and I gave him a call
on
night.
Q-
11
office
12
Capital
of
Let
me make sure
the
State
Litigation
13
Northwestern
14
information
about
A.
Yes.
16
Q·
Okay.
Appolon
I understand
Appellate
this
this:
Defender,
Division,
University
15
was als.o giving
students
and a professor
Case?
And that
would
have,been
Beaudoin?
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
And you
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
.Did
22
first
Taylor?
io
17
the
Terry
you
Marroquin,
23
A.
24
Q.
25
A.
got
information
get
any
from
information
M-a-r-r-o-q-u-i-n?
No.
·Do
Yes.
you
know
who
she
is?
him?
from
So the
11
1
2
Q·
How about
A.
He gave
Sanders,
did
he
give
you
information?
3
4
reports
5
basically
6
Dan
and
the
the
9
Taylor?
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
On
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
What
14
A.
I said
15
My name
is
16
project
on the
17
name
18
was
19
talk
20
alone.
and
taken
23
24
that
25
He
did
you
to
police
me any
we just
the
phone
--
went
then
number
you
say
to
to
from
contacted
just
-What
did
he
be
told
this
ask
William
Taylor?
say
a
few
doing-a
I found
questions.
sound
to
just
Porter,and
wanted
like
people
And
he
to
your
wanted
leave
you
that
made
all
that
he
he
to
him
you
think·
he
alone?
me he
why
you
didn't
left
came
them,
him?
I am a student
He
he
to
got
of Anthony
it,
He
giv·e
own and
Division,
case
some·people
talked
you
hello,is
aback.
to
the
telephone?
I wanted
wanted
A.
When
the
files,
documents.
Tom McCann.
about
Q·
just
for
his
He didn't
on our
Litigation
10
21
out
Okay.
Capital
to
testimony.
office
Q.
8
me access
we went
Sanders'
7
22
Mr.
said
by his
does
place
he
have
wanted
not
too
to
talk
long
to
ago.
anymore.
say,
12
1
His
2
mother
was
3
felt
very
4
you
know,
5
guilty,
6
with
sick
full
I
him
9
by
on
know
wish
the
Q·
And were
that
he
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q·
And
17
A.
One.
18
Q·
How
20
A.
I
21
Q.
And
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
So
19
24
25
his
she
--
I
just
think
were
died.
Anthony
executed
his
And
of saying,
Porter
and
is
I can
get
on
aware
at
that
he
the
point
had
you
already
were
been
calling
visited
Beaudoin?
11
16
and
a doubt
he
telephone
Yes.
right?
or
and he made mention
beyond
A.
13
time
stress
10
Appolon
believe
the
of
You were
Appolon
12
I
life.
Q.
8
at
I just
my
7
mother
you
aware
didn't
how
want
many
that
to
visits
he
talk
did
had
to
already
him
told
about
Appolon
make
this,
to
Taylor?
many
phone
calls
did
Appolon
have
with
Taylor?
and
now
A.
you
don't
know.
this
was
Appolon
were
Appolon
prior
had
talked
contacting
had
to
contacted
him
November
of
to
him
at
on
the
phone,
him
in
1998?
least
August.
once
right?
he
13
1
2
Q.
to
talk
3
And that's
to
A.
you
about
police
coercion
5
police
the
6
affidavit
night
him
Q·
Appolon
8
A.
It
Beaudoin
Q·
Have
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q·
Do you
have
14
A.
I
a
15
Q·
Okay.
that
17
18
A.
that
19
20
you
you
Q.
affidavit
you
got
dealings
so they
got
an
affidavit
saying
into
have
seen
with
an
from
what
the police
that
--
happened
to
headquarters
the
affidavit?
a c·opy
copy
of
You were
of
it
it?
at
asked
home.
to
bring
all
the
notes
had.
I am sorry.
received
No,
I thought
long
I
taken
have
by
·We didn'
22
Q.
I understand.
accusatory.
seen
Appolon
A.
t
that
have
it.
This
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
We
are
here
get
is
another
Beaudoin?
anything
to
I am not
trying
But you know why we are
24
was something
ago.
never
21
23
regarding
murder.
11
16
want
that.
was an affidavit
the
I don't
but his
in
regarding
him when he got taken
of
Appolon
he made an affidavit
he was taken
from
night
told
-- not coercion,
7
10
he
this?
I believe
4
9
when
to
the
bottom
do
with
to
here,
of
it.
be
don't
this.
you?
14
1
A.
Right.
2
Q.
What
3
A.
The
4 ( night
and
in
overnight
6
Wentworth,
7
with
anything
8
5:00
o'clock
didn't
flashlight
11
officer's
12
are
in
you
more
13
you know,
15
officers
16
told
front
Q.
Did
the
police
No,
19
Q.
So
the
police,
21
police
they
51st
up in
in
that
left
hi
and
or
charged
there
until
in
officer
him banging
shook
it
an intimidating
of
Porter·or
a large
on the
police
manner,
said
who
us.
detailing
the
intimidated
fact
by what
that
the
he was,
police
did.
A.
told
at
locked
a police
of
afraid
18
20
He said
him
afternoon.
--
mentally
took
he was arrested
him
And basically
14
did
to
22
A.
Right.
23
Q.
The
25
that
next
own hand
they
headquarters,
kept
the
that
overnight.
say
but
about?
said
police
And they
10
affidavit
him in
at
9
24
this
affidavit
left
5
17
is
shoot
and-kill
A.
No.
the
affidavit
was
he
the
the
didn't
say
or
not
what
he
truth?
mention
affidavit
it
whether
anything
like
that.
talk
about
what
doesn't
only
talks
about
what
he
said
-he
the
him?
affidavit
Jerry
didn't
Hillard
say
and
I saw
Marilyn
Anthony
Green?
Porter
15
1
2
Q·
about
his
3
4
Did
Just
on
5
the
Q.
6
at
that
7
Anthony
time
9
Q.
That's
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
That
and
Sanders
14
Q·
Although
A.
Right.
Q·
The
or
Taylor
the
Appolon
still
they
forth.
tell
you
maintained
that
that
shooter?
they
told
August
of
Anthony
Yes.
there
you?
1998
William
Porter
was
was
nothing
Taylor
t.jie
still
shooter?
about
it
in
the
affidavit?
16
And
he
maintained
it
when
I
called
him.
18
1 to
maintain
first
that
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q·
And
22
back
in
A.
19
pacing
was
what
13
17
door
he
Appolon
Taylor?
when
August
that
with
that
was
Yes.
maintained
with
Did
Porter
conversation
saying
in
A.
15
any
Dan Sanders
Okay.
8
12
have
conversation
A.
knocked
you
Anthony
spoke
Porter
course
he
told
to
him
he
was
the
shooter?
you
how
he
continued
knew
right?
23
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
- What
25
A.
I
you
Anthony
of
Porter;
time
don't
did
he
know
say?
if
he~ told
me the
day
I called
1·6
1
him,
the
2
knew him on the streets,
3
he
saw
4
night
him
I called
mug
Q.
I
men in
front
6
A.
I thought
of his
8
Q.
It
9
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
Do you recall
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
Tell
it
I found
he
know him personally,
about
actually
grandmother's
was two old
Jury
how it
A.
was
two
the
is
mugging
apartment?
women,
but
I am not
people?
the
Ladies
that
William
old
Taylor
Taylor
knew
Anthony
16
person,
and he saw him mug two old
17
I don't
know if
18
but
19
1 street.
he saw Anthony
20
Q·
And this
21
A.
Yes
22
Q.
Beaudoin
24
time
I
is
because
Porter
is
- I
heard
he
in front
what
he
the
him
people
in
of his
told
Porter
knew
mug two old
Grand
Porter?
in
the
as
a bad
front
mother's
people
to?
--
house,
on the
you?
.
And you already
and
A.
1982
of
knew Anthony
neighborhood
it
I am referring
and.·Gentlemen
William
before
incident
15
25
that
sure.
14
23
out
believe.
Did he say something
two old
13
but
he didn't
someone
5
7
him,
Dan
don'
it.
heard
about
this
think
that's
from
Appolo
Sanders?
t
think
so.
I
the
first
17
1
2
Q.
Taylor
Do you
on
3
A.
4
December
the
That
would
11.
Okay.
6
A.
Yes.
7
Q.
Did
8
conversation
So
you
on
Yes.
10
Q·
And in
11
Saturday,
13
case"?
Taylor,
A.
Yes.
15
Q·
So
16
A.
I
17
Q.
Did
18
"he
sounded
19
Porter
case"?
the
am
is
then
Q.
Did you also
23
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
Did
25
A.
Yes.
you
you
over
say
the
on
phone
on the Anthony
December,
write
and
21
talk
that
it
is
to
Porter
November?
yes.
bothered
will
before
about
did
"I talked
not
Yes.
he
to
11 was a Friday.
eyewitness
sorry,
you
Sunday
a memorandum
14,
the
it
the
memorandum,
A.
that
talked
phone?
20
22
first
December?
prepare
November
14
in
the
A.
William
you
be probably
And December
Q·
12
when
phone?
5
9
remember
if
write
not
write
you
keep
that?
in
your
happy
"but
memorandum
to
talk
I agree
pushing
him"?
about
with
the
App~olon
18
Q·
1
2
though
3
Is
he
that
Did you continue
on "our
sounded
throughout
what
on
you
A.
Yes.
5
Q.
He said
this
man
is
"there
A.
Yes.
8
Q·
Is
9
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
You put
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q·
"He's
he-wants
that
to
put
it
A.
Yes.
15
Q·
He said
finally
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
Is
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q·
"And
his
22
things
mother
that
back
said
that
in
quotes,
to
live
behind
to
in
my mind
that
you?
didn't
with
thi.s
you?
for
18 years
and
him"?
"he
will
not
be
what
the
man
told
Yes.
24
Q.
· And
this
is
passed
together".
A.
with
no doubt
he
this
just
23
25
call"
happy
until
Porter
executed"?
17
21
is
what
had
14
16
the
guilty"?
7
13
was friendly
wrote?
4
6
guard
talk
man
this
on
bad
time
for
away and he wants
Is
is
the
a very
you?
that
a summary
telephone,
what
him
because
to piece
you
wrote?
of
your
conversation
is
that
correct?
is
19
1
A.
Yes.
2
Q.
After
3
investigator
4
1 and
S
was
for
told
them
the
shooter;
Yes.
7
Q·
You
he
9
anymore"?
told
me
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
"But
see
the
visited
by
Appellate
that
an
Defenderin
it
was
Anthony
in
your
August
Porter
who
he
I
on
didn't
want
never
told
memo
to
talk
him
I
"before
about
had
hanging
this
already
case
gone
to
park"?
13
A.
Yes.
14
Q.
"That
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
Did
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
"On
15
been
State
continued
10
12
the
once
right?
A.
up,
had
already
6
8
he
will
be
my
ticket
when
I
meet
him
again"?
20
December
21
at
his
22
to
accompany
you
9,
write
Tuesday
I
will
apartment
or
Wednesday,
attempt
with
us
that?
Paul
park".
that
your
plan?
wanted
him
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
Was
25
A.
I
to
interview
Ciolino
the
23
to
to
December
come
with
or
William
and
Did
8
you
us
try
to
write
to
the
Taylor
get
him
that?
park
so
20
1
he
show
2
Q.
Was
3
A.
Yes.
4 1
Q.
You
5
told
6
the
you
he
case,
Yes.
8
Q.
"I
10
Yes.
12
Q.
Those
A.
Yes
14
Q.
That
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q·
What
17
suspicion
18
your
plan?
continued
to
make
the
to
talk
to
try
to
you
are
your
your
did
you
Henry
in
anywhere
anymore
man
about
What I wanted
22
and
up
blame
suspicion
knows
on
where
to
plan?
mean
by
"cast
n?ost
I thought
to
on him because
to
of
the
do is
a person
he is
that
you
and
try:to
automatically
make him feel
o
friendly
me.
23
Q.
The
blame
for
24
A.
The
blame
if
didn't
the
words?-
you talk
guard.
I
the
that?
if
21
truth,
of
Taylor
write
interview,
pin
the
if
an
20
25
after
Williams"?
don't
open
you
most
out
Did
19
all
cast
find
was
Well,
get
plan
.
on
A.
saw.
want
is".
A.
1
it
and
11
13
he
will
Williams
Williams
what
right?
A.
Henry
us
didn't
7
9
t
could
want
what?
indeed
him
to
he
think
wasn't
that,
saying
you
the
know,
he
21
1
was going to get in trouble or he had something to lose
2
if
3
Q.
But at the point you were talking to him and
the point you were concocting this plan, this man had
4
he actually
did not
say the
truth.
5
twice before told you and another investigator
6
did
speak
the
7
A.
8
stating that:
9
no"?
truth;
that he
right?
But he never said anything beyond just
oCould I talk to you about the case,
10
A.
No.
11
Q.
Did you read
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q·
Did you see his sworn testimony?
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
You read his
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
So you knew that
the
transcript?
sworn testimony?
at
least
on three
18
occasions:
19
again with you in Novemberof 1998, William Taylor was
20
saying I saw Anthony Porter do the shooting?
21
A.
once in 1982, once in August of 1998, ~nd
Yes.
I wanted to get him to come with me
22
Washington Park so I could figure
23
made no sense
24
Anthony Porter
25
to me.
out why his testimon
Because he said
-- he saw Anthony Porter
to me that
do this,
to
leave him alone but he never answered any questions
to
22
1
about
2
sense.
why his
testimony
You
3
know,
Q·
So
5
A.
Yes.
6
Q.
And try
4
7
it
with
explain,
your
plan
it
didn't
you
know,
to
go
make
any
what
with
he
saw.
Ciolino
to
his
9
Q·
And
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
What
12
A.
We went
you
building
on
th·e
14
standing
in
front
15
building
and
16
any
17
to
chance,
and
Ciolino
him
to
go to
the
park
you
in
the
north
when
the
said
and he said
And
cage
on
hello,
went
you
doorand'
side.
of
Paul
do
indeed
to
his
his
home?
home?
it'~·'is
an apartment
there
is
the
are
I am.
got
to
a
first
you
man
floor
William
And we started
of
the
Taylor
b
tal~ing
him.
18
Q.
1 where
this
Cage,
by
single
the
room
way,
is
the
occupancy
little
hotel
desk
has
its
area
counter
such?
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q.
And
23
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
· And
him?
corlvince
did
13
and
and
you?
Yes.
25
--
home?
A.
20
to
was
8
19
made
he
identified
then
you
himself
and
Ciolino
as
went
Taylor?
somewhere
with
23
1
A.
No,
2
Q·
You stayed
3
area
of
the
A.
Yes.
5
Q·
In
Professor
7
investigative
didn't
Protess,
he
9
Q.
What does
A.
It
one person
plays
12
intimidating,
13
and another
14
nice
guy,
15
like
the
intimidating
16
guy.
Q·
And that
kind
19
is
correct?
that
20
A.
Right.
21
Q.
What
22
him
play
23
A.
24
to
us
25
thing
the
Well,
about
as
bad
the
he
said
your
class
of
vestibule
with
on an
·
to you?
go on an interview,
some~one who is
and applies
just
back
And usually
the
fellow
and opens
is
the
when you talked
Ciolino
say
to
big
pressure
laid
indeed
did
the
work
you
two people
who is
sympathizer.
employed
of
mean exactly
role
of,
person
Ciolino
area
him.
known as good cop bad cop?
that
the
18
the
instructed
that
means
11
17
of
technique
Yes.
in
with
building?
course
A.
anywhere
down
the
8
io
go
apartment
4
6
we
and
I guess,
and just
person
up to
a
doesn't
the
nice
technique
that
you and
to Taylor
that
night,
Taylor
when
you
saw
cop?
he
said
Porter
before,
basically
case.
could
And
I don't
you
William
want
to
please.talk
said
talk
the:same
about'
it,
24
1 I I
just
want
it
2
3
to
And
you,
William,
4 ( talk
about
he
said
it
is
this
5
hearing
6
innocence,
7
soon
so
whether
8
have
to
deal
and
knew
11
started
asking
12
this,
13
testimony
14
his
but
is
I
is
that
you
even
though
testimony
end of
the
pool
17
north
end
of
the
bleachers
18
could
you
see
a
19
·1 where
you
stood
putting
right
next
through
a
21
anything
22
view
And
looked
25
Paul,
death
or
not
you
are
me,
we
shook
pretty
going
to
saw
you
- You know,
was
Porter
shoot
with
right-handed.
long
way away from
at
1:00
in
that
far
the
rod-iron
stood
the
away.
the
how
from
the
could
that's
the
morning,
from
how
fence
on
And
clothes
fence,
I
your
you
your
he
saw
that
a·long,
to
time
says
Anthony
he
on
first
testimony
this.·
from
the
hands,
you
an
s~e
obstructed
completely.
23
24
his
to
for
said
south
testimony
about
put
think
why your
face
to
a competency
be
introduced
16
20
to
we have
is
issues
tell
sometime.
there
Your
are
to
away,
There
cooperate
And
really
something
go
later.
going
he
him
have
to
there
this
me.
hand,
15
he
I
going
or
and
then
said
left
not
you
And
already
well,
up
with
10
away.
soon
coming
9
go
like
you
he
know,
he
kind
was
of
went
thinking
started
silent
in
saying,
his
you
and,
head.
know,
you
know,
And
we
it
then
read
your
25
1
affidavit
2
night.
3
thirty
4
how
these
5
And
he
6
him,
7
is
8
really
9
anything
10
about
And,
police
treated
I
been
know,
I
know
have
exactly
officers
do
really
a
here;
please
speak
to
victim
up.
die;
if
happened
And
you
that
you
these
be
doing
this
going
on,
you
to
people.
saying,
anything
a
man's
life
to
you
you
know,
did
have
if
for
they
anything
or
that
things
if
you
have
night
should
you
what's
police
is
about
the
are
know,
who
say
about
not
saying
please
to
what
talk
up.
Q.
12
just
13
manner?
Did
Ciolino
attributed
A.
No.
15
Q.
Did
about
you
him
a
first
loud
A.
No.
18
Q.
Did
you
ever
to
20
A.
One
21
Q.
.What
22
A.
Well,
23
William
Taylor,
24
silent;
and
25
not
what
you
Professor
Protess
to
anyone
about
techniques?
thing.
is
all
a
of
techniq~es?
complain
investigative
part
and'~ intimidating
complain
investigative
17
saying
the
in
ever
Ciolino's
Ciolino's
say
to
14
19
you
years,
11
16
how
it
you
it
is
he
was
of
a
single
complained
later
on
looking
sudden
word
in
that
down
he
until
a-bout?
meeting
on
looks
I
know
the
up
and
those
when
ground
says
two
being
I
am
pol~ce
26
1
officers
2
in
3
going
that
1982
were,
are
to
off
come
Q·
By
5
A.
Yes.
6
Q·
That
7
A.
Yes.
to
9
going
come
10
the
carand
11
detectives
way,
And
13
call
on
the
14
Sergeant
15
other
investigator
16
on.
And
17
anymore.
after
me
the
came
A.
24
close
25
me
and
we
And
threatens
will
are
I
they
are
said
are
I
not
went
into
the
two
of
testimony.
I
will
said
just
is
don'tremember
there,
they
did
is
or
the
and
said
saying
whether
so
going
she
are
said
not
hol
there
that?
Ciolino
not
basically
the
police
were
job?
Yes.
as
--
are
they
the
and
Ciolino
about
on
called
or
you
23
back
they
they
names
he`
that
So
the
afraid
And
and
and
Q·
on
this.
up
20
still
that
hung
did.
guy
know
and
are
Ciolino
what
me
brutalized?
afraid
him
--
A.
22
did
am
am
testimony
P~rry
19
this
for
or
You
to
I
back,
Q·
lied
do
And
Salatorie
just
I
was
I
interrogated
phone.
he
word
said
How
I
brutalized
word?
he
18
21
his
me.
that
that
because
his
And
found
12
force
was
come
know,
me.
the
after
to
the
after
4
8
you
in
you
be
down
addition
or
there
he
gives
you
right
said
a
away.
if
call,
anyone
just
And
so
call
kind
of
27
1
eased
him,
and
2
said
--
3
two
people
4
shot
because
he
was
5
when
he
up
there.
first
of
went
that
night,
8
shot
and
he
9
And,
you
know,
another
11
didn't
do
12
said
something
13
hell
for
14
Ciolino
he
Let's
him
Yes.
17
Q.
And
20
21
the
in
concerning
A.
Yes.
Q.
I
park
knew
would
how
his
I
know
up
knew
just
'I
a
Porter
there
Porter
up
long
am
going
was
a
blur.
that
Anthony
think
there
there
this,
spoken
was
Anthony
clothes,
he
the
Jerry
saw
saw
was
that
have
about
A.
1
he
he
he
he
there
if
didn't
then
was
probabl
ago.
to
And
go
to
this.
got
parts
and
said
or
it,
thought
and
that
person
on
up,
he
thought
only
he
affidavit,
that
only
putting
he
an
said
he
said
looked
16
18
he
the
was
suspect
Q.
15
he
he
10
signed
shot,
And
7
he
all
were
6
19
then
go
thro~gh
to
sign
the
that
an
affidavit
affidavit
it
Anthony
will
when
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
That
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
"I
read
the
is
did
by
bit.
that
had
night?
really
four
big
Porter?
them
shooting
what
not
bit
you:
"I
was
present'in
occurred"?
he
see
to
said?
Anthony
Porter
shoot
anybody"?
he
28
1
A.
Yes.
2
Q.
"I
3
A.
Yes.
4
Q.
"I
5
never
did
A.
Yes.
7
Q·
That's
8
A.
Yes.
9
Q.
That's
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q·
And
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
But
Anthony
15
16
Porter
A.
the
he
who
shot
what
he
said
to
what
Ciolino
the
park
He said
with
a gun"?
victims
that
18
A.
Park.
19 1
'Q ·
Didn't
21
22
park,
23
said
24
he
the
you
the
pool
that
"I
thought
park
run
saw
that
he
Q.
Did
was
he
tell
he
someone
saw
or
by
He said
he
thought
out?
signed
told
he
Porter
A.
wrote
guys?
that
he
night,
off
on
did
see
is
it?
that
I saw Anthony
correct?
Porter
in
somewhere"
In
Anthony
you
Taylor
also
in
Q.
25
Porter
see
eventually
17
20
not
Anthony
day"?
6
14
seen
pool?
you
him
on
thought
run
~that
those
he
past
he
thought
he
saw
bleachers?
saw Anthony
him.
I
don't
person
who
in
the
think
he
Anthony.
say
Anthony
that
the
Porter?
ran
past
him
29
1
A.
He might
2
Q-
Did you make any notes
A.
No
Q·
Because
3
4
1
affidavit,
did
you certainly
I
8
Q.
But that
that
didn't
have
though.
he said
about
didn't
put
that
in the
notes.
in the
affidavit,
in the park that
night;
right?
Right.
12
Q.
What else
included
in
14
A.
th·e
did
I can't
think
just
16
was a woman involved.
17
not
18
he
19
said.
too
Q.
after
21
fast
was not
anyone.
get
else
Marilyn,
besides
that
what
there
saw or?e body.
He did
He saw someone run past
a good
look
you where
at
his
him,
him.
friend
William
was
shooting?
He said
me that
night
22
to
23
Henry Williams
24
him
Q·
anything
He just
to
A.
and
you .that
know that
Did he tell
the
of
He didn't
see who shot
ran
he tell·
affidavit?
15
25
of what
included
he saw Anthony Porter
A.
20
any
was not
11
13
so,
you?
A.
10
think
.
7
9
I don't
that?
5
6
have.
the
that
but
at
police
And did
the
--
I know that
murder
came
he
I don't
tell
up
know if
he said
this
he met up with
site
to
them.
you
what
and was talking
Williams
told
with
him?
I
30
1
A.
No.
2
Q·
He didn't
3
told
him
when
the
A.
No.
5
Q.
He didn't
robbery
of
Henry
7
A.
No.
8
Q.
Did
9
Anthony
tell
went
11
Q·
When Williams
12
A.
The
long
Q·
armed
robbery
Q·
Did
robbery
of
A.
No.
21
Q.
.Did
was
of Henry
you
Henry
20
the
armed
told
pants
pockets?
told
him
that
up?
me .8bout
Williams.is
and he hasn't
seen
him in
ask
you anything
Williams
him
any
that
about
the
pight?
questions
about
the
~rme
Williams?
you
ask
him
whether
or
not
what
Williams
true?
23
A.
24
Q.
Henry
them?
Williams
stuck~
he
told
18
25
thing
And he never
Never.
saw
got
he is
A.
22
only
his
know where
17
19
Williams
time.
15
16
to
what
about
that
through
No.
14
up
anything
you
A.
he doesn't
came
say
10
13
about
Williams?
he
Porter
anything
police
4
6
say
No.
· Did you go and discuss
Williams
with
him?
the
armed
robbery
of
a
31
1
A.
No.
2
Q·
So there
3
William
Taylor
4 1 affidavit,
that
5
A.
Yes.
6
Q-
You said
7
A.
Right.
8
Q.
And you noticed
there
were
10
night
and talked
11
station;
four
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
That~
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
Edwards,
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
Senior,
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
And
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
police
you read
not
include
the police
in the
witnesses
in
police
repprts,
police
who were
to by the
A.
24
Q.
would
by
this
on
at
right?
reports
the
the
that
scene
that
police
be
Woodfork?
correct?
correct?
Eugene
-Do you
that
23
police
did
were said
right?
12
25
Ciolino
that
right?
9
22
were some things
Beckwith,
remember
what
is
that
Kenneth
correct?
Edwards
told
th·e
night?
No.
' Are
that
you
night
aware
that
that
Anthony
Kenneth
Porter
Edwards
was
told
the
person
the
32
1
who
shot
and
killed
Jerry
Hillard
2
A.
No.
3
Q.
Did
4
A.
I
5
Q·
You
7
A.
I
8
Q.
You
9
A.
No.
Q.
Well
you
remember
12
A.
That
was
in
13
Q.
Who?
14
A.
Salvatore
6
15
read
believe
that
I
believe
in
Marilyn
the
police
that
in
Green?
reports?
did.
you
read
the
police
reports
10
11
you
and
don't
remember.
don't
remember?
Salvatore
and
Gray,
don't
you?
William
the
and
court·
Gray
test'imony.
and
Henry
Williams
Taylor.
16
Q.
Did
17
A.
I
18
Q·
Do
19
summarizes
20
Henry
you
look
at
the
police
reports?
did.
you
the
remember
testimony
a
of
police
William
report
Taylor
that
and
Williams?
21
A.
I
22
Q.
Let
23
think
me
(Witness
24
A.
25
Q·
I
read
show
being
that.
it
to
you.
shown
document.)
. Okay.
78ecause
I do not want to mislead
you.
and
33
1
A.
2
I remember
Woodfork,
3
but
Q·
4
anyone
the
I don't
those
never
folks,
did
A.
No.
6
Q.
So if you got those
from
somewhere;
8
A.
Yes.
9
Q.
Nobody told
10
A.
No, just
11
Q·
Take
12
them
chase,
I could
13
aren't
you about
attent.ion·to
reviewing
document.)
Q.
I
want
you
this
look
16 )
(Witness
reviewing
17
Have
had
you
A.
Yes.
19
Q·
Do you remember
your
~I don't
22
Q.
But you remember
and
24
A.
25 1 .
Q.
To cut
Page
Kenneth
to
the
4.
Edwards?
document,
to
look
it
at
it?
now when you were
investigation?
A.
Beckwith,
report.
it.
reading
21
23
at
a chance
18
police
report.
me to read
to
people?
in the
your
15
doing
those
direct
Do you want
with
you?
at
A.
said.
names, you are getting
a look
(Wit-ness
and
you?
what I read
14
20
Beckwith
had any conversation
5
7
of
remember what they
YOU certainly
about
names
. Right
remember
reading
the
this.
names Edwards,
Woodfork,
Senior?
.
So now you
see
that
in
addition
to
Williams
34
1
and Taylor there was another person who told the police
2
that
Anthony Porter
3
A.
Yes.
4
Q.
As well
5
the
was the shooter
as
three
other
A.
Right.
7
Q-
And I know you are
8
can see
9
confirmed
that
those
three
the Alstory
other
12
Q·
Did you do anything·to
13
A.
No.
14
Q·
Did
15
A.
When I was doing
Anthony
17
that
18
William
19
other
of events,
don't
go
out
and
talk
to
this,
And we went
in Court.
Taylor's
inv'estigate
it
them?
them?
was only
with
the
two witnesses
And when wegot
affidavit,
we didn't
look
back at .the
ones.
was,
22
25
you
Porter.
appeared
20
24
more or less
they?
Yes.
23
young man, you
witnesses
Simon version
A.
21
who witnessed
a bright
11
16
people
night?
incident?
6
10
that
Q.
But,
Tom, what did you tell
what
were
you
A.
To find
the
truth.
I mean
this
took
student.
Q.
student,
Let's
doing
go with
I understand
this
that.
that.
us your purpose
for?
But I am a college
a long
time.
You are
Who told
a college
you to quit
when
35
1
you
got
2
to
the
A·
3
to look
Q.
5
four
affidavit?
No one.
decided
4
Taylor
We only
at the
Did anyone
A.
No.
7
Q.
Did anyone
8
whether
9
night?
time
so we
suspect.
tell
you not
tell
you to
or
not
they
saw Porter
10
A.
No.
11
Q·
Did you think
to
interview
those
go back
in the
and see
stands
for a minute that
that
that
might be
important?
13
A.
I
14 1
S~.
You didn't
15
alternate
short
guys?
6
12
had a very
did
not.
go.with
Ciolino
when they got Taylor to sign this
16
A.
No.
17
Q.
So you don't
18
A.
No.
19
Q·
But the
20
almost
a mirror
21
change,
22
when
you
affidavit
image,
there;
23
A.
Right.
24
Q.
Did you
25
A.
Yes.
affidavit,
did you?
know what went on that
that
with
of the affidavit
were
and the professor
the
that
he signed
exception
Ciolino
that
meet
with
day was
of one
got him to sign
right?
ever
day?
Anthony
Porter?
36
1
Q·
When
2
A.
I
was
first
it
was
believe
3
Wednesday.
4
Q·
And
where
5
A.
Saw
him
at
6
Q·
And
who
did
A.
David
7
9
Shawn
Q.
.And
11
A.
It
Division
he
where
is
go
on
a
him?
County
you
Jail.
to
Q·
And
A.
Small
guard
when
looking
in
the
Cook
Sanders,
County
Jail
and
jail?
southernmost
you
saw
one.
him,
18
A.
One
table,
19
Q·
BY
witness,
the
wasn't
21
A.
22
Q.
saw
24
I
think
it
is
what
kind
of
and
chairs
room
was
· He
white
the
tables
table
and
windows.,
and
four
way,
a
chairs?
chairs.
Kenneth
Doyle
was
an
alibi
he?
guess
Fat
him
A.
a
.I
with
through
many
and
the
cubicle
How
You
Dan
at
the
Q·
23
see
Cook
Protess,
17
20
you
16,
him?
in?
15
16
December
met
9.
13
14
you
Armbrust.
10
12
did
time
with?
8
25
the
so.
Luke?
We
there,
was
top
and
how
dressed
like
will
a
talk
was
in,
Long
more
he
I
John
about
it.
dressed?
believe,
top.
a beige
pants
a
37
1
Q.
Was
2
A.
Yes.
3
Q.
How
4
A.
I believe
5
Q.
And
6
A.
I
7 ( everyone
8
9
shackled?
was
he
I
personally
arm
braces,
speak
exchanged
a
this
the
first
you
personally
few
time
to
him?
words
you
cuffs.
had
with
him
whe
ever
seen
hi
person?
Yes.
11
Q.
And when
the
first
thing
you
13
A.
"Hello,
14
Q.
Did
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
What
17
A.
Hello.
18
Q·
And did
introduced
A.
21
something.
22
they
23
think
24
I
to
Anthony,
he
did
to
he
say?
you
say
to
him,
what's
him·?
I
respond
really
treating
I
can't
Maybe
asked
Q.
things
said
spoke
am
Tom
McCann"
that?
anything
else
after
you
yourself?
20
25
and
talking.
A.
19
leg
was
10
12
had
you
think
Was
shackled?
he
did
else
Q·
in
he
to
remember.
something
you
in
here,
him
--
I
· When
you
spoke
him,
were
you
I
about,
how
don't
to
you
is
the
remember
him
speaking
know
and
the
I
said
know,
food.
what
when
how
are
And
I
else.
you
English
said
these
language?
38
1
A.
Yes.
2
Q·
And did
3
A.
In
4 )
Q.
And did what he said
5
to
what
you
he
respond
English,
were
saying
to
A.
Yes.
7
Q·
When he
engaged
in that
room that
everybody
9
in
the
English
in
conversation
night,
Yes.
11
Q.
And what
13
A.
Yes.
14
Q·
And when he responded
say
sound
Yes.
17
Q.
And did
Jerry
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
How did
21
A.
.Actually,
24
25
speak
said,
was~ it
understandable
to
did
to
to what
them,
was being
he tell
you
that
he
you
he
said
night
that
what
he
to him?
he knew
Hillard~?
19
23
they
responsive
A.
22
did they all
you?
16
18
with
language?
A.
15
to you appear responsive
him?
10
12
you?
yes.
6
8
to
someone
Q.
conversation
A.
that
the
So you
the
I don't
tell
I don't
second
are
not
first
think
time
sure
knew
think
--
we met
if
you
Hillard?
I think
he told
him.
had
that
night?
so.
I think
he said
somet~ing
39
1 I about
not
knowing
2
Q·
The
3
A.
Yes.
4
Q·
But he didn't
A.
I don't
S
7
are
8
9
first
time?
talk
about Hillard
talking
about
Q·
alibi
Did he,
with
A.
Yes.
11
Q·
What did
A.
He said
12
He
said
know.
in
I just
you
January.
that
first
night,
he
was·
at
he say
I wasn't
about
talk
about his
Howis it the.subject
15
A.
I think
all.
of his alibi
came up?
someone asked him were you in the
And he emphatically
17
Q·
And who asked
18
A.
I believe
it
19
Q·
Professor
Protess?
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
.And did
at
home.
Q·
night.
it?
in.the.pafk
14
park that
know he said what
you?
10
16
the first
time?
6
13
Marilyn.
him
was
anyone
22
questions about his alibi,
23
that
denied
it.
that?
David.
else
follow-up
and ask him
about what he had been doing
night?
24
A.
25
Q.
· Yes, I think
What
did
you
I asked him something
ask
him?
about 'it.
40
1
A.
You know,
2
testimony
3
stopped
4
just
5
and you didn't
6
You know,
7
and
8
never
there
is
there
a police
you and frisked
come clean,
it
that's
you really
were
you out.
A.
No.
11
Q.
Was
the
he
You know,
good~for
that
you.
person,
tell
said
us
he was
anybody
taking
of
notes
that
of
conversation?
that
conversation?
13
A.
I think
We were
just
Dan Sanders
there
to
say
15
Q·
How long
did
16
A.
Maybe
minutes.
17
Q.
What else
period
of
19
trial.
21
and
45
was talking
hello.
you
just
was said
say
during
hello?
that
It
was talking
about,
22
Q-
23
witnesses
24
A.
Waiter
45 minute
you know, the
You know, some psychologist
see
ndtes.
time?
A.
20
25
said
in
park.
10
18
that
But he still
Did you make any notes
14
--
you in the park.
Q-
12
someone
officer
have a gun,
help
the
is
you know, if they did see you there
so if
might
in
9
said
you,
just
routine
Did he give
he
-I
wanted
believe
Jackson.
things
you
you
he
to
the
is going
about
names
of
to come
the
case.
any
other
investigate?
mentioned
He said
upco~ihg
his
the
name
name and he kept
:·:1~
41
1
repeating
2
3
it
Q·
when
over
and
went
to
see
S
Q.
You didn't
know that
6
affidavits
contained
information
prison
10
know
But you knew that
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
You knew
planning
14
on
A.
this.
visiting
This
This
16 Jwe thought
17
Q.
didn't
some
Waiter
he approached
Waiter
your
Jackson?
him
Jackson
in
figured
classmates
int
is
the
that
it
first
wouldbe
But you had the
were
Jackson?
was a month before
time
that
we had any plan
we got
the
Yes.
20
Q-
And you had the
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
Did
a good lead.
affidavit
of Joyce
Heywood,
affidavit
of Ricky
Young;
right?
Waiter
those
affidavits
Jackson?
A.
I
don't
remember.
to
mention
the
do
name and
you?
A.
25
of
Waiter
19
24
about
early
investigation?
11
13
that
some of the
anything.
Q·
the
the whole thing
not.
I didn't
or
into
night?
I
9
21
that
A.
A.
did
him
4
8
18
again.
You knew how Waiter fit
you
7
15
over
name
42
1
Q.
2
that
Anything
first
else
A.
No,
just
4 1
Q.
Did
you
William
Taylor
A.
No.
7
Q.
Did
movie
deals
9
10
No.
Q·
Had
notion
of
12
investigation?
or
you
and
A.
11
um
--
can
movie
hear
book
you
ever
deals
deal
with
or
book
In
Just
17
You
18
overwhelming.
19
this,
21
in
during
your
only jokingly.
what
context?
Tell
me
ho
know,
as
who
saying
events
this
played
Saying,
would
Q·
You
A.
Like
is
out,
God,
play
didn't
incredi~ly
it
if
a
who,
just
hear
Ciolino
interesting.
was
movie
kind
of
went
out
of
joking.
say
anything
lik~
that?
22
23
manner,
the
this.
A.
20
about
classmates
rights
Q.
16
rights?
Taylor
your
14
did
to
to
rights?
During the investigation,
what
book
talk
A.
you
about
anything
and
Ciolino
discussed
a movie
say
13
15
remember
no.
Ciolino
about
6
8
you
conversation?
3
5
that
Nicole
Kidman,
24
Q.
When
25
A.
I
people
said
and
just
was
the
next
it
was
believe
Tom
jokes
Cruz
like
time
in
early
should
play
me and
that.
you
met
week
Porter?
in
January.
43
1
Probably
the
first
2
Q.
Who
were
3
A.
Dan
Sanders,
4
Rhodes-Pitts
and
Q.
Protess
6
A.
Oh,
7
Q.
It
8
A.
Right.
9
Q.
And did
that
second
you
with
was
wait
was
week.
on
David
Erica
5
10
or
a
the
that
occasion?
Protess,
Syandene
LaBorgne.
there
on
that
occasion?
minute.
No,
he
students
and
Dan
you
discuss
you
persona·ll_y
was
not.
Sanders?
Porter's
alibi
during
visit?
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
And
13
A.
I don't think I said anything there.
14
Q.
Who
15
A.
I
16
same
thing
as
Q.
Which
18
A.
He
Erica
said
And
20
a
21
like
22
don't
23
24
25
gun
or
up
remember.
he
said
it
with
him?
I
last
justknow
he
said
the
time.
was?
emphatically
the
denied
something
something.
in
`diS'cuss
did?
don't
17
19
did
about
And,
air
and
didn't
was
the
part
you
he
was
a gun,
know,
in
like
he
was,
have
any
gun.
the
big
article~
~he
park.
did
you'have
he
went
~ut
remember.
Q·
That
yesterday's
A.
Sun
I
don't
Times,
think
in
right.
it
mentioned
a
gun.
in
I
44
1
Q·
2
park
3
don't
4
have
5
wife.
6
It
have
to
find
think
9
gun.
woman,
will
tell
not
I
you,
10
A.
Yeah,
well.
11
Q.
A reporter
are
quote,
would
13
A.
He
quoted
me
14
Q·
So
there
15
A.
That
16
Q.
--
17
A.
I
19
20
Q·
I
woman,you
Simon's
happened.
quotes
was
a
don't
put~
'some
by
it.
quotes
time
if
that
things
Brian
know
around
saying
long
report
word.
around
it
if
he.
as
are
for
in
never
told
him.
this
ago.
Smith
it
I
is
that
not
are
true,
not
but
tr'ue?
it
.is
not
word.
What
did
he
attribute
to
you
that's
not
accurate?
21
A.
22
"if
23
something
24
25
what
the
doctoring.
wouldn't
a
for
Alstory
word
some
weren't
word
Jackson,
knows
in
exploding,
That
that's
did
there
18
him
you
around.
she
if
reporter
Well,
it
Inez
know
Q.
12
recalls
were
me."
don't
the
she
Anthony,
I wasn't
that
him,
out,
No,
no
She
was
blurted
night.
A.
I
Erica
that
7
8
"
you
don't
stuff
like
at
mind,
like
Q.
would
.Just
"If
to
I
that,
is
do
Porter"?
beginning
would
you
it
the
still
like
to
of
take
class
the
saying
case",
or
know.
opened
said
Tom
McCann,
I
45
1
A.
I
2
Q.
He
3
A.
Yes.
4 )'
Q·
So
6
A.
Right.
7
Q·
So
5
probably
put
either
around
you
discussed
9
wasn't
once
are
like
that.
it.
mistaken
in
Right.
11
Q·
Did
12
A.
Just
13
Q·
Did
14
A.
Don't
15
Q.
Is
day
17
house?
you
saw
19
Q·
Did
20
A.
After
22
to·talk
Q.
you
or.he
is
mistaken;
Book
out
A.
25
Q·
-
he
got'
out'
of'prison.
his
alibi
on
time
and
discuss
was
about
deals,
No.
Movie
third
he
told
all
you
he
time?
you
the
that
rights?
his
did
alibi
day?
just
want
to
to
went
him,
to
the
his
week.
on
from
food,
he
you
last
released
was
talked
day
Northwestern
deals?
24
a
here
he
again
you
right?
last
to
you
once
meeting
s'o.
the
came
second
him
discuss
think
him
He
wanted
day
that
A.
park;
meet
the
the
and
the
you
18
on
alibi
present
A.
16
again
Porter's
10
23
quotes
something
right?
8
21
said
that
occasion?
prison,
all
mundane
things.
talk
about
he
book
46
1
A.
No.
2
Q·
So
3
discussed
4
or
it
anything
movie
A.
No.
6
Q·
What
7
A.
Other
8
Q.
You
A.
No.
12
(
'Q.
Anthony
that
you
Porter
have
about
never
book
deals
witnesses
did
witnesses?
That
you
was
interview?
it.
weren't
present
when
Inez
Jackson
weren't
present
when
Waiter
was
Jackson
was
interviewed?
A.
No.
14
Q.
You
15
A.
No.
16
Q.
So
17
A.
Right.
18
Q·
And
19
attempt
20
Edwards;
to
speak
spoke
again
speak
with
to
you
with
Offie
Taylor
never
Lee
and
Green?
~nthony
spoke
with
Beckwith,
Woodfork,
ascertain
that
Porter?
or
made
Senior
any
or
right?
A.
Right.
22
Q·
How
23
A.
I
1 following
about
didn't
you
21
25
with
other
You
13
24
testimony
interviewed?
10
11
your
rights?
5
9
is
did
think
Appolon
various
where
we
you
leads,
could
find
told
us.
telephone
him
and
Williams
was
dead?
We
you
know,
were,
numbers,
he
eventually
and
things
just
47
1
told
us
2
believe
3
certificate
4
believed
that
him.
7
Jury
8
you
I
Grand
had
Jury
and
in
your
Right.
10
Q.
And
2.
13
two
I
am
Take
we
death
and
didn't
report
we
or
finally
Right.
18
Q.
And
actually
20
from
21
of
maybe
the
the
Chicago
crime
22
A.
Right.
23
Q.
When
A.
I
of
calling
was
pages
this
and
your
recounts
calls
it
Taylor.
that
records
Exhibit
F,
those
brought
to
your
interview
a
phone
that
you
me?
with
right?
call
had
the
Park;
1 and
the
t~ereafter;
after
in
of
Are
re-enactment
was
Grand
right?
pages
plan
by
this
case;
Jury
you
Washington
that
two
subpoena
records
Pages.'
District
at
William
certain
recounts
phone
believe
to
you
two·
them
Park
scene
coming
about
two
other
two
your
Grand
14
the
a
as
of
November
A.
19
one
issued
me
the
17
date
a
were
gave
or
And
25
And
us
was
you
these
Q·
on
today
at
15
you
possession
look
a
Yes.
1
he
with
mark
A.
24
dead.
showed
required
to
exhibits
Taylor
or
going
14
16
was
who
bringing
A.
12
he
he
you
that
9
which
then
showed
asked
today
11
out
And
that
Q·
the
found
it.
5
6
he
with
people
re-enactment
right?
again?
November,
I
close
believe
to
earliel
the
in
48
1
the
week
sometime.
I
2
Q.
And
again
3
A.
The
week
4
That
was
So
6
A.
A
7
Q.
I noticed
right
Yes.
10
Q.
He was
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
On
13
A.
Yes.
14
Q.
You
two
were
going
to
you
16
another
17
to
take
19
waited
20
about
I
had
to
missed
or
something
We
had
to
23
Q·
In
any
event,
on
Yes.
your
school.
you
Sun
Friday?
past
on
man you
met
Friday?
had
so and
go
to
go
Times
or
Jack
Regan?
go
and
take
a
you
guy,
him.
I thought
had
never
he
and
went
to
other?
Times
with
other,
and
each~
Sun
to
I
each
something
that
but
A.
A.
to
I
22
25
you
go
The
Regan
November?
the
moved
and
Q.
Jack
·of
or
21
24
a Monday.
think.
for
a class
so
an hour
me or
of
Regan,
at
looking
kind
a picture
for
visited
been
19th?
direction
A.
18
the
14th
Jack
Taylor.
have
I
date.
am sorry.
might
then,
out
I
a
William
the
that
we all
--
calling
before
A.
15
week
around
we·ek
me when
9
of
remember
So it
Q·
with
the
a Sunday.
5
8
don't
And
that
to
he
that.
up
I
he forgot
picture.
hooked
wanted
with
49
1
Q.
And
you
knew
2
A.
And
when
I
3
he
said
4 1
5
call
Q.
said
And
A.
7
phone
8
that
your
9
that
or
and
the
handed
13
15
I
called
I
told
print
I
at
called
you?
his
office
and
to
Professor
him
Protess
you to
office
I
wasn't
has
the
--
someone
there.
the
two
or
right?
answered
And
subpoena
just
he
come any way;
and
or
and
he
the
told
me
something
come
like
on Monday
with
them.
I noticed
that
are
dated
I think
print
that's
something
memoranda
February
2'1,
something
with
out,
it
that
you
1999?
my computer.
has
the
date
with
the
memo
you
open
of
thetime
it.
16
Q.
Explain
17
A.
For
18
Microsoft
19
erases
20
the
21
it
out.
22
I
think.
23
spoke
your
me today
I
looking
home,
professor
of
A.
When
got
volunteered
I
your
Q.
14
you
was
Monday.
professor
rest
11
12
on
he already
6
10
him
he
some
again.
reason
word,
that
when
date
that
you
the
date
that
that
you
have
when
.So I wanted
And
put
to
I printed
down
you
make
it
out
up
system
the
file,
originally
the
file
a copy
for
you
it
put
it
and
open
and
on
and
the
Q.
25
A.
- When
I
did
prepared
you
prepare
it
when
-these
I
did
two
it.
print
yesterday,
date
1 yesterday.
24
puts
memoranda?
of
50
1
Q.
Which
2
A.
November
3
November
4
for
Q.
5
that
7
the
for
gave
William
to
10
memoranda,
Professor
Protess?
that's
part
Q·
So when I get
of
Park
one
and
one.
two
Yes,
dates
on
are
the
these
final
memoranda
package
for
I
12
Q·
Well,
A.
Yes
14
Q.
You did
15
Washington
'
think
do
you
this
morning,
I
with the appropriate
recall·?
.
a Taylor
interview
memoranda
and
a
Park?
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
And so there
should
be in
his
package
the
date?
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q·
And what
on
in the
so.
16
right
file
it?
A.
(
his
see two memoranda like
11
21
Washington
Taylor
A.
should
9
18
the
class.
8
13
when?
And these
you
6
is
your
A.
Microsoft
23
Q·
By
investigation
25
pool
software
do you~hav~
computer?
22
24
word processing
layout
the
word.
way,
would
and will
it
be
try
said
to
get
to
an
object
the
do this
of
blueprints
during
further
of
finals
the
old
week,
51
1
did
you
ever
do
that?
into
2
A·
I ran
3
Q.
And what
A.
Trying to find the office
4
5
Q.
roadblock?
phone
that
would do this
to study for.
Do you know then when you talked
7 IMiss Jefferies
to
and Mr. Pecarara (phonetic),
were these
calls?
9
A.
Yes.
Q·
So they never got to see these photographs,
12
A·
They work right
13
Q·
Okay.
10
11
14
right?
of
the
A.
Yes.
16
Q·
And
17
A.
He is
18
handyman
or
19
with
pool.
20
21
the
Q.
that
22
next
to the
And Miss Jefferies
pool.
is the.custodian
pool?
15
you
A.
-- I forget
the
manager
title.
or
somebody
But he is ~
who
deals
Did you talk to them the night or the day
were
out
there?
The day I was out
Miss Jefferies
24
days.
Q.
Pecarara?
utilities
23
25
was the
and, you know, I had other finals
6
8
a roadblock.
there
I got a number for
and called them the following couple
Did you endeavor
to fine
out whether
these
3
52
1
canopied
areas
2
November
of
3
4
A.
Those
are
new
canopies
right.
6
A.
I
the
8
same
9
of
Q.
Grand
12
I
am
I
14
Q·
Did
those
canopies
17
Q·
And
18
A.
I
19
Q.
Joe
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
What
22
A.
He
25
any
who
asked
before
Q·
other
don't
there
just
look
think
You
were
that
that
'82?
there.
there?
the
bleachers
me
at
of
canopies
know
concrete
told
August
any
the
H.
fence
are
the
the
dimensions
same.
Grand
see
the
Jury
Exhibit
canopied
E and
section
right?
ask
were
Yes.
24
So
you
A.
there
he
in
in
do.
16
23
I
basically
about;
A.
the
grandstand
there
I
And
Exhibit
talking
fact
sure.
and
are
13
15
not
Okay.
Jury
in
the
Were
1982.
pool
in
canopies
style
in
that
11
am
same
as
were
same
All
is
were
The
Q.
10
_
'98
5
7
tha.t
kind
there
did
John
or
in
you
August
Jefferies
of
whether
1982?
ask?
Pecarara.
Pecarara?
did
he
thought
but
- And
Pecarara
those
beyond
of
tell
you?
there
was
were
that
confirmation
some
newly
you
type
of
canopy
installed.
didn't
get
blueprints
that
there
indeed
or
was
a
53
1
canopy
there
that
location?
2
A.
That
is
right.
3
Q.
Now,
is
part
of
have
read
about
looked
4
( everything
that
5
newspapers
6
couldn't
7
the
I
is
have
reason
the
pool
seen
what
he
said
of
the
you
this
sugg-ested
case
in
different
he
saw
in
the
and
is
Taylor
because
of
canopies?
A.
It
9
Q·
And
the
the
rod-iron
fence
and
11
12
the
that
8
10
:·
in
is
because
A.
Nothing,
Q·
Okay.
difference
rod-iron
fence.
between
fence
just
that
a newer
this
was
rod-iron
in
fence,
'82
was
same
what?
style
same
makeup.
13
14
Grand
15
next
16
because
Jury
to
And
that
the
when
pool
of
the
17
A.
He
19
Q.
How
20
A.
He
21
his
clothes
22
the
murder.
23
24
which
25
bleachers
is
but
are
see
up
at
H.
Look
looking
at
do
you
that?
said
it
so
away
still
know
his
were
by
when
you
from
the
saying
at
into
the
wall
are
the
fence
this
this
the
wall,
testimony
the
td
location
stands
document.)
by
in
you
standing
standing
that
far
are
can't
fence?
was
And
you
you
(Witness
18
what
wall,
he
while
he
you
putting
looks
standing
obstructs
says.
up
by
can
the
see
--
and
pool,
in
vou
on
the
still
sees
54
1
can't
2
is
3
the
4
5
1
see
just
much.
a
wall
of
morning,
·
And
you
when
you
black.
you
Q.
that
And
And,
wouldn't
this
be
was
all
Correct.
7
Q.
You
A.
Maybe
10
Q.
2:00
in
the
morning?
11
A.
2:00
in
the
afternoon.
12
Q.
So
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
I
to
on
at
see
a
this
it
1:00
in
thing.
re-enactment
didn't
go
out
there
at
1:00
in
the
2:00.
it
was
pretty
ligh·t
'ou~·
at
2:00
in
the
afternoon?
16
that
17
Exhibit
18
showed
you
want
you
looked
G-l
at
you
early
That
is
20
Q.
And
those
today.
22
back
23·
You
identify
I
5.
Are
these
reports
marked\them
those
Grand
the
Jury
reports
that
you
looked
I
Kenne-th
Q.
are
the
do
recall
them
do
recall
them.
Edwards'
So
I
correct.
reports
or
that
don't
recall
them
at
from
then?
A.
the
just
on?
A.
21
to
before.
through
19
25
know,
wall,
morning?
9
24
able
the
did?
A.
13
from
you
based
6
8
look
you
I
don't
recall
reading
statement.
looked
at
the
reports,
you
just
don't
55
1
recall
the
2
A.
3
At
4
and
time
Henry
left,
9
looked
10
story
11
once
12
decided
13
you
at
two
15
in
16
a
know,
we
two
that
didn't
that
So
what
particular
know
had
Taylor
there
was
move
witnesses
decided
it
to
such
to
court~,
use
'them.
your
decision
not
to
by
what
on
hold
find
the
we
to
the
look
time
just
tell
back
that
wouldn't
fueled
so
went
they
is
didn't
little
quickly
that
we
make
you
interesting?
to
And
witnesses
them.
William
reason
anymore
you
Court.
in
over
said.
Since
in
skimming
interested
there
the
Q.
14
was
part?
remember
witnesses
A.
8
I
was
other
7
I
Williams
Q·
the
Edwards'
Right.
that
5
6
Kenneth
at
their
on
the
prosecution
these
other
prosecutors
decided
1982?
A.
Well,
17
the
testimony
18
and
another
19
them.
Anthony
of
two
Porter
eye
witness.
20
Q·
Why
21
A.
What
22
Q·
Why
23
A.
We
24
Q.
. Why?
25
A.
did
do
did
talked
Because
you
look
you
mean?
you
look
Anthony
convicted
witnesses,
And
to
was
one
eye
so
we
at
Waiter
Jackson?
at
Waiter
Jackson?
Waiter
decided
based
to
on
witness,
look
at
Jackson.
Porter
mentioned
that
he
saw
56
1
him
in
2
Alstory.
3
4
1
prison
Q.
Why
A.
Because
5
compiled
6
neighborhood.
7
by
Q.
8
these
9
Inez
talk
she
was
these
Waiter
11
Q.
Why
12
A.
We
there,
you
the
crime
we
15
Q·
There
16
A.
This
was
is
time.
18
will
find
the
19
either
20
actually
there.
21
because,
you
know,
22
and
try
to
talk
23
were
to
it.
24
25
1
closest
MR.
anything
else.
class.
I
mean
is
people
So
we
GAINER:
to
to
you
the
go
right
else.
know,
places
to
not
three
Nothing
was
anything
You
the
confessing
time.
or
had
in
right?
she
needed
decided
we
that
a-person
And,
go
read
them?
information.
these
you
what
saying
of
the
that
saying;
we
lot
affidavits
in
guys
person
a
most
in
at
about
Simon?
We· had
a
something
people
look
think
much
just
was
another
didn't
knew
corroborated
didn't.
have
to
Inez
of
you
17
go
to
three
sort
didn't
and,
and
he
through
Jackson
just
that
mentioned
other
they
Right.
14
did
reports,
and
said
defense
And
A.
to
he
the
10
13
and
two
know,
the
you
it
is
people
to
waste
classes
people
that
I
didn't
where
other
else.
we
don't
that
were
time
to
we
go
thought
have
to
57
1
A
2
bleachers
3
4
that
A.
1-
5
portion
7
A
JUROR:
was
it
11
is
a
12
concrete
wall
next
next
total
solid
or
that
standing
is
The
is
tall
of
portion
to
the
to?
11
or
12
feet.
of
it
or
brick
feet?
portion
was
around
5
or
6
feet
tall.
A JUROR:
9
A.
How
William
10
of
the
12
And
A JUROR:
couple
inches
A.
16
that
so
or
There
that
17
So
a
was
was
a
A JUROR:
18
it,
·1
the
is
William
about
the
Taylor?
5'8,
5'9.
shooting
happened
at
the
top
Correct.
13
15
is
grandstand?
A.
14
tall
Taylor
A JUROR:
11
20
believe
The
8
19
Taylor
it
A.
How
I
of
6
JUROR:
the
rod-iron
Where
fence,
he
he
could
A JUROR:
22
this
at
23
your
group
24
the
25
what
Porter
was
the
coup~e
only
have
to'step
away
a
feet?
another
5
or
totalof
11
He
see
was
could
6
to
have
standing
just
You
beginning,
see
foot
12
fence
on
top
of
feet.
through
that
through
the
portion
of
initial
been
you,
and
But
group,
approach
angle
of
black.
have
changed.
investigating
your
would
portion?
A.
21
he
through
some
the
of
the
initial
what
as
--
you
you
were
members
of
thrust
was
it
started
as
i
o'f
your
in
on
--
58
1
this
investigation,
2
A.
3
cases.
4
reports
5
you
6
something
where
Just
basically
First
and
know,
7
And
then
start
the
murder,
12
stop
of
at
And
be
14
an
15
about
16
and
17
them.
18
the
testimony,
19
the
crime
take
it,
and
note
if
of
that
if,
you
know,
if
find
you
you
find
the
police
find
out,
there
is
the
eye
him
at
an
do
other
it.
placed
to
the
and
interviewing
try
you
and
Inez
people
And,
for
you
witness
the
scene
that
he
alternate
find
~out
and
getting
23
A.
24
we started
25
looking
out
he
is
guilty,
then
you
we
way
further
into
At
point,
some
just
at
the
in
to
the
did
him
of
sentence?
competency
the
case.
the
psychologist's
death
angle
was
And so at
to
you
first
reports,
trail,
to
suspects.
and
done
we were
and
to
witnesses
might
already
Simon
talk
paper
the
is
talking
alternate
approach
the
there
Alstory
dec,ided
a competency
out
been
about
start
your
and
have
talking
years,
work
innocent,
perhaps
The
at
16
is
people
been
know,
and
he
that
have
Jackson
that
think
suspect
A JUROR:
of
testimony
case;
then
if
alternative
20
22
all
there.
But
think
with
Read
the
trial
or
headed?
same
the
and
innocent
13
21
that.
it,
of
might
like
about
9
11
at
odd
witnesses
witness.
look
basics
the
you
the
the
or
10
you
things
8
were
some
the
group
be
a wa
before
just
people
59
1
in
our
2
records
3
know,
4
case.
group
on
we
him
were
5
6
went
and
worked
on
just
that
A.
8
to
9
talking
at
10
park
and
11
William
Taylor
12
through
the
13
tests
and
14
stuff
as
you
for
on
that
to
find
And,
you
side
of
si~de,
the
y·ou
awhile?
really
in
have
that
to
scene
doing
and
all
psychologist's
Gainer
going
stuff,
report's
and
much
time
was
into
the
interviewing
that~
test
too
Mr.
addition
the
Stanford
that
on
witnesses
and
the
work
didn't
because
trying
capacity.
worked
re-enacting
do
we
and
look
all
the
had
to
at
look
Wexler
competency
well.
15
A JUROR:
a
mental
So
other
about
schools
to
We
the
old
trying
angle
Right.
look
his
his
A JUROR:
7
16
to
At
some
point
or
other
you
developed
theory?
17
A.
Yes.
18
A JUROR:
19
1 at
the
paper
20
to
see
if
21
view
22
23
1 prison,
24
just
25
you
trail,
it
perhaps
A.
I
he
go
at
along
the
might
be
it
with
and
form
do
look
your
what
think
you
you
supports
of
look-
That
at
be
theory
innocent
an
the
theory,
might
an
pursue;
and
pieces
your
going
as
you
of
evidence
hypothetical
down?
is
there
is
a
he
might
be
guilty,
opened
opinion
look
mind
and,
based
guy
you
on
the
in
let's
know,
factsl.
as
60
1
A
2
who
3
them
were
4
We probably
hadn't
7 1 the
truth
8
testimony
9
end
in
up
the
12
had
14
followed,
a
or
two.
So
we
A
see
that
17
how
hard
19
He
always
20
uncover
21
murders,
I
mean
24
you
25
months
he
might
about
he
is
a
class
it
you?
so
if
soon
were
and
he
pursuing
his
that
couldn't
was
do
the
anything
hearing
up
and,
innocent
was
you
and.
we
know,
just
thought.
did
my
you
upon
grade
hours
I
that
suspect
A
rare
personally
your
dependent
put
in
if
the
students
he
find
looks
at
hardly
committed
well.
thing.
and
upon
it.
says
as
ever
findings?
was
that
an
really
of
differently
competency
time,
give
you know,
we
be
fact
would
we
things
many
a
it
And
dependent
the
front
recanted
his
we
any
investigation
know,.another
and,
shorten·
how
truth
an
and
thought
worked,
This
do
I
in
nothing.
witnesses
interview
been
But
So
was
mentioned
22
saw
to
At
grade
then
hadn't
Taylor
what
JUROR:
I
a
231just
had
didn't
done
death.
January
know,
your
A.
18
he
hunch·that
15
16
to
four
there
have
William
of
you
right
quarter.
Ist
week
we
close
first
the
13
were
hearing
said
pursue
you
would
until
and
of
a
they
so
didn't
report,
competency
been
you
police
A.
6
11
the
though
Anthony's
until
in
But
even
5
10
JUROR:
It
some
it
ever
is
stuff.
in
And,
another
goes
usually
this
few
fast[
61
1
and,
2
could.
3
BY
you
MR.
4
5
know,
we
Q.
September
The
class
26,
and
A.
Yes.
7
Q.
Of
8
A.
Yes.
9
Q.
About
to
Taylor;
I
12
Q.
And
15
anybody
17
in
midst
of
it
as
best
as
we
September
of
1998,
to
Taylor
in
November?
7
weeks
go
by
far
as
I
six
or
seven
before
you
even
talk
so.
as
I
was
doing
can
tell,
'you
weeks,
didn't
talk
to
right?
competency
things
in
the
that.
Did
these
18
A.
I
19
Q·
So
have
in
talked
or
think
at
20
6
Oh,
Q·
look
began
you
those
A.
16
did
right?
A.
14
to
1998?
11
13
try
GAINER:
6
10
just
any
time?
21
A.
.I
22
explanation.
23
Q.
I
24
asked
by
·the
25
whole
notion
you
ever
other
your
suppose.
that
anybody,we
need
to
go
did.
what's
Grand
to
witnesses?
never
want
say
explanation,
I
to
mean
follow-up
Juror.
Taylor
I
on
You
couldn't
are
that
don't
one
you
really
of
the
talking
have
didn't
have
questions
about
seen
an
what
this
he
62
1
said he saw because
2
A.
3
Q.
4 1 he
says,
And you are
swim,
did
referring
you
Okay.
come
Now,
out
of
7
"A
Yes.
8
"Q
Okay.
9
did
10
"A
11
were.
12
"Q
you
bleachers
17
"Q
Okay.
18
is
that
now?
19
separates
the
20
bleachers?
IIA
Yes.
22
"Q
Or
23 (
IIA
No, the
25
went
for
where
wall
where
my clothes
with
were you
respect
spectator
to
area
the
by the
pool?
Along
(
you
water?
the
·or the
"A
24
where
And when you came out,
situated
16
1
after
Okay. And.w~iere, sir,
14
1
sir,
the
Towards
clothes
21
transcript
go?
13
15
to the
380:
" Q
6
right?
Yes.
Page
5
of where he was positioned;
from
'Q
the
the
wall.
Along
the
wall.
this
the
wall
Is
pool
area
another
from
Which wall
that
the
wall?
one that
separates
the pool
bleachers.
And what
did
you do once
you
a
63
1
reached the point where your clothing
2
was?
3
II A
4 1
myself
5
a towel and was drying
off.
nQ
6
Okay.
And did you have occasion
to look around the area at that
7
point?
"A
Yes.
"Q
And could
"A
Yes.
io
"Q
And what was it that you saw?
11
"A
I saw a man being
8
9
1
I grabbed
12
Q·
13
reach
14
he
Is that
the conclusion
that
he couldn't
Yes.
16
Q.
Did you read
the record
the
where the lawyer
19
pool
20
wall,
211
you say you saw this
22
someone?
25
"THE
·"BY
nQ
Now, imagining
area
COURT:
MR.
To
this
or where the
how far
pool
from this
Referring
defendant,
418 of
said:
railing
to be the
starts,
the
wall were you when
gentleman
--
GURSEL:
the
at
for Mr. Porter
"Q
1
see w~at he said
cross-examination
18
24
you to
saw?
A.
23
shot.
the testimony.that.:compels
15
17
you see anybody?
Mr,
Porter.
here shoot
64
1
"A
2
podium.
3
"Q
This
"A
Yes.
5
"Q
How far
6
estimation
7
close
to
8
"A
About
4
1 ·
9
Qthe
From that
wall
podium
of
the
from
the
feet
were
you in
5
that
12
But you apparently
13
cross-examination?
15
I asked
16
about
17
and he said
18
wall.
19
fence
the
see
Q·
Did
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q·
You knew
from
the
away
24
looked
25
up·and
A.
Yes.
did
you
in
terms
have
of bein
seen
examination,
Mr; MCCann,
what
the
But when
on December,
you were
on my clothes
you know that
he
right?
cross-examination.
where
I was putting
can't
not
himself
inconsistencies
20
231
the
Taylor
And I said
you
he could
overlookedl·
William
wall
man -- you were compelled
said he saw based on his direct
at
that
feet.
11
I looked
end of
wall?
to
A.
the
away
10
14
about
here?
So you made this
conclusion
to
I told
at
the
wall
against
with
the
him
the
rod-iron
anything.
read
that
rod-iron
saw the
that
he
cross-examination?
had
fence
gunshots;
taken
and
the
right?
himself
wall
five
when
he
feet
65
1
Q.
Did
2
A.
He
3
Q.
And
4
told
you
5
want
to
6
that
you
7
conclusion
8
right?
9
you
read
in
now
talk
that
Right,
Q.
Did
11
A.
I
12
Q.
Inez
13
A.
No.
I
you
are
the
15
THE
FOREPERSON:
Nothing
(No
18
(Witness
22
23
24
25
he
he
was
1
far
Simon?
else.
Are
there
any
response.)
(I nvestigation
excused.)
continues.)
what
he
bad
he
didn't
cop,
the
said
questions?
17
21
cop
reached
what
Alstory
said
good
you
that
was
Jackson?
GAINER:
20
fact
it
twice
after
see
professor?
not.
MR.
19
that
that
interview
your
well.
had
case,
14
16
he
couldn't
and
you
did
as
compelling
he
to
saying
after
this
so
out
testimony
about
found
this
the
November
A.
10
point
further
he
saw;
away.
)·~·*
I
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STATE
OF
ILLINOIS
2
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reported
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hearing
11
thereafter
12
into
13
and
14
before
ANNETTE
Reporter
of
of
do
above
the
transcript
Grand
Jury
of
in
to
of
the
Cook
I
had
cau·se;
hereby
the
that
proceedings
I
Certified
practice
foregoing
~which
a
certify
entitled
the
typewriting,
to
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caused
accurate
FAKLIS,
hereby
shorthand
the
E.
licensed
Illinois,
in
SS:
in
that
be
the
I
transcribed
certify
proceedings
is
a
true
had
County.
15
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16
17
11
-
ANNETTE
E.
FAKLIS,
CSR
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