M A S T E R C L A S S

ΟΣΤΗΡΙΚΤΗΣ ΜΕΤΑΚΙΝΗΣΗΣ
M A S T E R C L A S S
49o ΦΕΣΤΙΒΑΛ ΚΙΝΗΜΑΤΟΓΡΑΦΟΥ
ΘΕΣΣΑΛΟΝΙΚΗΣ
49th THESSALONIKI
INTERNATIONAL FILM FESTIVAL
W I L L E M D A F O E
14-23.11.2008
www.filmfestival.gr
ΕΠΙΣΗΜΟΣ ΧΟΡΗΓΟΣ
ΧΟΡΗΓΟΣ ΕΠΙΚΟΙΝΩΝΙΑΣ
ΜΕΓΑΣ ΧΟΡΗΓΟΣ
ΥΠΟΥΡΓΕΙΟ ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑΣ ΘΡΑΚΗΣ
ΥΠΟΥΡΓΕΙΟ ΑΝΑΠΤΥΞΗΣ
ΧΟΡΗΓΟΣ ΒΡΑΒΕΙΩΝ ΚΟΙΝΟΥ
YΠΟΣΤΗΡΙΚΤΗΣ ΑΕΡΟΜΕΤΑΦΟΡΩΝ
Υ.Π.Α.
ΥΠΟΣΤΗΡΙΚΤΗΣ BUSINESS
ΥΠΟΣΤΗΡΙΚΤΗΣ
ΙΑΤΡΙΚΗΣ ΠΕΡΙΘΑΛΨΗΣ
ΧΟΡΗΓΟΙ ΕΠΙΚΟΙΝΩΝΙΑΣ
49o ΦΕΣΤΙΒΑΛ ΚΙΝΗΜΑΤΟΓΡΑΦΟΥ
ΘΕΣΣΑΛΟΝΙΚΗΣ
49th THESSALONIKI
INTERNATIONAL FILM FESTIVAL
14-23.11.2008
www.filmfestival.gr
MASTERCLASSES
49th THESSALONIKI INTERNATIONAL FILM FESTIVAL
Georges Corraface
Βλέπω είστε όσο ζωντανή είναι η θάλασσα σήμερα. Μου φαίνεται ο Willem και η «Σκόνη του
Χρόνου» ξύπνησαν τη θάλασσα στην ειρηνική Θεσσαλονίκη. Θέλω να σας παρουσιάσω σήμερα
έναν άνθρωπο που στον Όλυμπο των ηθοποιών στέκεται πάνω-πάνω. Από πάντα, τον παρακολουθώ
και τον παρακολουθούμε και μας έχει προσφέρει πάρα πολλά δώρα. Όχι μόνο σε μας, αλλά και
στους πάρα πολύ σημαντικούς σκηνοθέτες της σύγχρονης κινηματογραφίας με τους οποίους έχει
συνεργαστεί όπως τον Martin Scorsese, τον David Cronenberg, τον David Lynch, τον Allan Parker,
τον Oliver Stone και πάρα πολλούς άλλους στην Αμερική αλλά και στην Ευρώπη, όπως με τον Lars
Von Trier, και βέβαια με τον δικό μας, τον Θεόδωρο Αγγελόπουλο.
Επίσης, έχει κάνει μια καταπληκτική δουλειά με ένα θεατρικό γκρουπ που έχει ιδρύσει, το Wooster
Group. Έχει γράψει και με τη γυναίκα του, την Giada Colagrande και μία ταινία. Είναι ένας άνθρωπος
με πολλά ταλέντα, αλλά το πιο μεγάλο του ταλέντο είναι η μεγάλη ειλικρίνεια με την οποία
αντιμετωπίζει ό,τι κάνει και ιδιαίτερα κάθε ρόλο.
Τι άλλο να σας πω; Να σας πω ότι ήδη είχε μια σχέση με την Ελλάδα, με την ταινία που έκανε ο Martin
Scorsese από το βιβλίο του δικού μας Νίκου Καζαντζάκη και σήμερα με τον Θεόδωρο Αγγελόπουλο.
Θα θέλαμε να τον ευχαριστήσουμε και γι’ αυτό βέβαια θα καλέσω τη Δέσποινα Μουζάκη επί σκηνής
για να του απονείμουμε το βραβείο «Αλέξανδρος».
Θα καλέσω τώρα τον καταπληκτικό μας Γιώργο Κρασσακόπουλο.
George Krassakopoulos
Welcome, Mr. Dafoe, welcome to everyone here today at another masterclass. Georges spoke about
you coming from the theatre. You started working on the theatre and you still work on stage. How
has this background and work there changed the way you work in cinema and how has cinema
changed your work in theatre -if it did at all?
Willem Dafoe
When I started as an actor, I knew it was to be a theatre actor. That’s the culture I come from. I suppose pretending is pretending, performing is performing, acting is acting. I think the theatre just
trained me in how to play with actions and finding the character through actions.
George Krassakopoulos
You said, “pretending” and you said “acting”. What’s the difference between the two?
Willem Dafoe
They are the same thing.
George Krassakopoulos
So, why use two different words?
Willem Dafoe
You need a little variety. Otherwise, I would be pretending, pretending, pretending.
George Krassakopoulos
So, your first true role was in a film, “Heaven’s Gate” by Michael Cimino.
Willem Dafoe
Technically, that’s my first studio movie. When I was starting out, I was acquainted with a lot of independent filmmakers, like 8mm filmmakers or homemade filmmakers, the downtown scene in New
York. Actually, I made some films a little before that, but they were not really regular features.
George Krassakopoulos
And then you had some very interesting roles in films like “The Loveless” by Kathryn Bigelow or “To
Live and Die in LA”, but the movie that really set you apart and made your face recognizable and
made you a star was Oliver Stone’s “Platoon”. It was your fist Oscar nomination as well. You missed
him by a couple of days. He was here at the festival. I think we could see a clip from that movie.
(screening)
I know that you did a boot camp in order to play this role. Was it an important preparation for you
and what do you consider as preparation? How do you prepare in order to dive into a character?
4 9 ο Φ Ε Σ Τ Ι Β Α Λ Κ Ι Ν Η Μ ΑΤ Ο Γ ΡΑ Φ Ο Υ Θ Ε Σ Σ Α Λ Ο Ν Ι Κ Η Σ MASTERCLASSES
Willem Dafoe
For “Platoon”, it was very specific. We did do a boot camp, which sounds very big -actors love to
talk about how they prepare for a role- but it was quiet, innovative at this time and quite in-depth
because we were trained by a bunch of Vietnam vets and they had a great stake in not having this
be a silly movie. They a great stake in trying to tell this story, so the best way that they could do that
was to train us to be soldiers as best as they could.
Of course, it’s a totally imaginary situation, but if you give over to that exercise and dig really deep,
you’ll see they gave us very concrete things to work on. They really taught us how to do things. I
really did know how to set up an ambush. I really did know how to clean my weapon. I really did
know what it’s like to get two hours of sleep for three weeks. I slept in a hole. I really did know what
it was like to be cold in the jungle. It helps a lot with the pretending.
And when you prepare for a role, it’s always different. Sometimes, you feel the need to do a lot of
research and sometimes really you can find a trigger very easily; not easily, but something occurs
that is that trigger for feeling that you are this guy or you can tell this story or you can do the actions that you need to do in this landscape. So it’s always different.
Sometimes it’s just a costume, like with David Lynch in “Wild at Heart”; if you know that movie, it
was prosthetic teeth. Sometimes, it’s an accent, in the case of “Tom and Viv” where I played Eliot. I
got a wealth of stuff to read because he has a very well documented life as far as biographies and
critical essays and then his actual work. So for some things you read a lot, for some things you practice a lot, for some things you do very little.
George Krassakopoulos
And does this trigger have to come during the script reading, while you read for the role or does it
sometimes come during the shooting?
Willem Dafoe
You know, I think it’s natural that you like to prepare and you like to feel ready. And sometimes you
don’t know what it is going to be and you decide that your preparation starts when you’re shooting.
But more often, it’s natural to have some tricks up your sleeve or have a language or have something to start with and then feel free to get a “map” once you start although you don’t need it. But
you always need a place to start so you are not passive and you don’t make a stamp out of it and if
it’s not correct, you make an adjustment.
George Krassakopoulos
And when you had to play Jesus, for instance, did you start by doing good deeds?
Willem Dafoe
That’s actually a good example of trying to do as little as possible. If anything, that was a perfect
case in which I needed to cleanse myself of any expectation and any pressure; also, it was a role that,
as the story was told, it was very reactive. In the story it’s a character that is acted upon. For that, all
I did was read all the different gospels and that was pretty much it. I read a couple of philosophical
things about love and forgiveness and that was it. I just had to cleanse myself of an anticipation
of what I thought the role needed to be, which is also easy if you have a lot of faith in the director.
It’s not so easy if you don’t have a lot of faith in the director. That’s why it’s nice to see strong directors.
George Krassakopoulos
We could now watch a clip from the movie where you not only play Jesus, but you have a scene
opposite a cobra, which is even trickier. Let’s see that.
(screening)
You spoke about the importance of the director. How was it working with Martin Scorsese? What
were your expectations when you started the film and how did this collaboration work?
Willem Dafoe
It was great. He gave me a great setup. He had made this movie in his head many times and he
was very precise about what had to be done. Also, it was a very low budget movie. It was very low
MASTERCLASSES
49th THESSALONIKI INTERNATIONAL FILM FESTIVAL
budget and under very harsh conditions. So it was a kind of low-budget energy shooting, but
also had the sureness of a big budget movie, because he knew the material so well. So it was a
great role with this great setup -we shot in the middle of Morocco- and Hollywood and the world
couldn’t be further away. So it was a good way to really disappear into the story.
But you always have these bad expectations. You always hear these stories about the movie “New
York, New York”, where he shoots a hundred takes and then comes back the next day and shoots
the same scene a hundred times more. I think we shot about three takes maximum on most of the
shots. So it had a kind of imagery and a kind of precision considering the material, because with
this material you could lose your nerve.
George Krassakopoulos
Scorsese is a director everyone speaks highly of. What in your opinion makes a good director for
your line of work? What is the director that helps you like?
Willem Dafoe
A director that is dying to make something, that gives you a good setup, trusts you, is clear and
gives you the room to make his/her story your story. That’s always the trick. It’s always a trust game
and a place of that person inviting you to be an agent of their story or their fantasy, allowing you,
sort of inviting you, and then letting you lead them into the story.
George Krassakopoulos
You spoke of “Wild at Heart” a while ago and I couldn’t think of a director whose style is more different than Martin Scorsese’s and this is David Lynch. And I would like to see a clip of you as Bobby
Peru, who is quite a character.
(screening)
So, how can you make a character that is sort of like a cartoon look so dangerous at the same
time?
Willem Dafoe
I believe I know what you’re talking about. I don’t know. I don’t know. You play your actions and you
try to disappear into it, but I wouldn’t go as far as saying that the guy is a cartoon.
George Krassakopoulos
Did the costume help you get into the role?
Willem Dafoe
Terrifically. This character does not exist in the world. He’s a totally invented thing, but somewhere
there was a mask that was handed to me on a hanger and I responded to it. And of course the
scene is well written; the dynamics of it are very good.
George Krassakopoulos
It’s a wonderful scene. You did movies like “Tom and Viv” and “Faraway, So Close!” and then you did
a movie with Madonna, which was a big failure. How does one prepare for failure? How do you feel
about this movie now?
Willem Dafoe
Philosophical. I can’t hear people say it is a failure, because somewhere deeply I know that if it
was released slightly differently, the timing was a little different, if there was something else in the
news, if people hadn’t been sick of Madonna being a bit of a sex pot, maybe it would have been
more well received. I look back on it and it’s something that I did. It makes way for something else
but I can’t quite get behind saying “that’s a failure” and I can’t quite get behind abandoning it. It’s
something I did and there are good things about it and bad things about it.
George Krassakopoulos
Do you think that failing in a way helps you?
Willem Dafoe
Absolutely. There’s no success like failure and failure is like no success at all, right? No, it makes way
for things. I can’t think of anything more oppressive than having what is perceived as success after
4 9 ο Φ Ε Σ Τ Ι Β Α Λ Κ Ι Ν Η Μ ΑΤ Ο Γ ΡΑ Φ Ο Υ Θ Ε Σ Σ Α Λ Ο Ν Ι Κ Η Σ MASTERCLASSES
success after success. Failures loosen you up. They put you up on track. They throw you off yourself.
They shake you up.
George Krassakopoulos
Oppressive, you said. What do you mean? The expectations they have from you?
Willem Dafoe
The expectations and also I am a creature that wants to make good things and I want to make
people find pleasure in what I do. So if something is seen as a success, there is a tendency to try to
repeat those successes. It’s the most natural thing in the world. I think it pleases you a little bit. Of
course, it’s kind of a ridiculous thing because you don’t plan for failure but you don’t plan for success either. You just plan to make something.
George Krassakopoulos
Do you have a plan in general?
Willem Dafoe
No. I mean, I know certain tendencies, things that I try to avoid and certain things that I find myself
attracted to. The only thing that guides me is a sense of engagement, a sense of pleasure and I
usually find that in people, in things like a script or a role or a career choice, because that’s the one
thing that has always led me to pleasure and led me to situations where, in spite of myself, I can
make something I didn’t expect.
George Krassakopoulos
The next clip that I want us to see is from a movie I know you really wanted to make. It’s from “The
English Patient” and I know that the book was one of your favorites. Michael Ondaatje is here so
let’s see a short clip from the movie.
(screening)
That was literally bleeding for art. Did you try to get this role?
Willem Dafoe
If I have the story right, I knew the book and I knew they were going to make a movie out of the
book and I was aware of it, but I didn’t think there was a role for me in it. And I remember at the
time, for this particular role, they were talking about Al Pacino or something. And I think Anthony
Minghella’s wife had seen me on the Wooster Group production, the theatre production and I think
she saw something in there and reminded him of me and that is what got him thinking of me and
then he asked me to do it. So, I didn’t actively seek it, but when he asked me, I was very happy.
George Krassakopoulos
Do you feel that Hollywood or the industry sees you in a certain way?
Willem Dafoe
I’m quite sure the industry sees me in a certain way, but there are other places to make movies besides the industry. I still complain about that because the industry needs to know what your effect
is and generally for a studio, when they hire me, they pretty much have to know that I will make
the proper effect; they have to calculate the effect of things because they have big budgets and
they have to know how to sell these movies. They have to know it will be a success even before you
shoot a foot. That’s pressure on the studios.
And then, on smaller movies, of course, they can take more gambles. So, that’s one of the reasons
I try to mix it up and I try to work in different arenas as well as work in different kinds of films. I
just want to keep healthy as to what my options are and how I can see myself and see what kind
of stories I can tell, because I think that’s important for me; the great part of making movies is the
adventure of it. It’s the desire to disappear in the stories and so to do that, you have to be a little
reckless and not exactly knowing where you’re going and the only way to do that is to mix yourself
up by doing different things.
George Krassakopoulos
So, it’s not the money or the recognition. It’s something more.
MASTERCLASSES
49th THESSALONIKI INTERNATIONAL FILM FESTIVAL
Willem Dafoe
It’s important because I want to have a career and a life, but there are all kinds of ways to make
money. Recognition is important -it’s nice for people just to have that- but it’s also important to get
acceptance when you make a movie. It’s kind of depressing when you make something that you
like very much and it’s not seen.
George Krassakopoulos
You once said that working in Hollywood and working in independent cinema is like exercising
different muscles. Is it so easy?
Willem Dafoe
No, it’s not easy. Once you get there, it’s all about identifying what you are interested in, what your
job is, who you are working with and what you are trying to do. And once you are there I feel like
you then become an actor and you apply yourself. It’s all the stuff before and after that feels so
different and can sometimes be very alienating and sort of something that does not fit into your
aspirations so well.
George Krassakopoulos
We had a clip but unfortunately we’re not going to play it. It was from the “Shadow of the Vampire”.
It was a great movie that gave you a second nomination.
Willem Dafoe
Vampires can’t see themselves in the mirror; that’s why it won’t play.
George Krassakopoulos
I guess you can say it’s based on a true story or thousands of true stories where the director lashes
at the main actor. Is it something that happens a lot in making movies?
Willem Dafoe
I don’t know that much. I hear stories but, for the most part, most movies I work on the actors basically want to be there. Usually that happens when people don’t really like what they are doing and
they don’t agree on why they are doing what they are doing.
George Krassakopoulos
So, there weren’t any instances in your career where you had a different vision from the one the
director had?
Willem Dafoe
Very rarely. Sometimes my instinct will tell me something is wrong, wrong, wrong and I’ll express
that to the director, but ultimately cutting the film is something that you have to give over. That’s
the dynamic unless you’re the director, unless you’re making the movie. So, sometimes it’s a struggle and usually I try to be an agent of their impulse.
George Krassakopoulos
We spoke of Hollywood and you have been in some big budget movies. You’ve been in the “Spiderman” franchise; but your most recent films are made by younger directors. Is there something that
you seek in a newcomer?
Willem Dafoe
Not necessarily; not at all. If you have options, you tend to want to work with people that you’ve
seen do extraordinary things and there are still plenty of people around that I haven’t worked with
or that I want to work with again. So, it’s just a simple kind of thing with younger directors. I don’t
know who they are. Having said that, I had an occasion recently where I had a sense from a young
director that you could work with him, because I always look for someone that has hands in the
pants, he’s dying to make something and they aren’t corrupted yet by problems of career or the
politics of being a filmmaker, which can get very thick with longer careers. And also, it allows me
to roll up my sleeves a little bit in some instances and get more involved with the shaping of the
movie.
4 9 ο Φ Ε Σ Τ Ι Β Α Λ Κ Ι Ν Η Μ ΑΤ Ο Γ ΡΑ Φ Ο Υ Θ Ε Σ Σ Α Λ Ο Ν Ι Κ Η Σ MASTERCLASSES
George Krassakopoulos
And then there’s Europe as well. You have worked with Lars Von Trier, and now you did this film “The
Dust of Time” with Theo Angelopoulos. What attracted you to this project?
Willem Dafoe
Their work, their movies.
George Krassakopoulos
Could you talk about the filming of “The Dust of Time”? How was the artistic process?
Willem Dafoe
It was great. I basically was meant to be a creature of Theo. Theo is famous for shooting these very
long, intricate takes. You basically go there -not all days but one day- and you can shoot one very
long take that sometimes is ten minutes long and they are very precise. He knows what they are
and he’s doing his bidding and once you work yourself into whatever the shot is, you end up diving
into it; entering that world in a way that is not self-conscious but serves the timing and the shape
of this dance that is the shot.
So, he was like a little bird speaking in my ear and sometimes he would do the shot before me
and then I’ d copy, which some actors would be offended by, but I’m not offended at all. I’m happy.
That’s performing of the most basic level -when the director shows you and you copy. It’s all about
being an athlete. It’s like saying “you’re going to run from there to there”. And the point isn’t running from there to there, but the point is how you get from there to there. There’s a great pleasure
in serving the vision of someone you respect. So it’s about getting into his head and trying to serve
his poetry.
George Krassakopoulos
And you’ve just finished shooting a movie with Lars Von Trier, called “Antichrist”; that doesn’t sound
very joyful to me.
Willem Dafoe
In the end, it’s pretty joyful but you don’t feel like going down.
George Krassakopoulos
After Angelopoulos, how was it working with Trier? How do they approach the actors?
Willem Dafoe
It’s very different because Theo has a very structured approach. He has moments of looseness in
him, but he’s very precise, where Lars is almost the opposite in how he approaches the shooting
day. He forbids rehearsal of any kind and you go to a room and he says: do it! And sometimes it’s
terrible and he says: okay, let’s move on. See? That’s a different way and he was using lots of different kinds of shooting. So, there’s a lot of cutting and a lot of manipulation. So, really, he’s begging
for accidents; he wants problems to happen because sometimes it’s those moments when there’s
something you can’t plan on; whereas Theo is very different. It was really about getting into his
world.
George Krassakopoulos
Working with two very different directors back to back, it means a lot of trust both to them and to
you as well. Is it something that comes from experience or is it something else?
Willem Dafoe
It’s a two-way thing. I trust them and they trust me. The more room they give me, they stronger I
become. I felt Theo’s trust very quickly and that’s very important. It relaxes you and relieves you of
any agenda or any kind of protections you might have naturally.
George Krassakopoulos
I’m sure there are many questions from the audience, so let’s take a few.
From the audience
It’s very nice to have you here. In Greece, there are two different basic approaches on how to interpret a character and they are rather contradictory. One is to use yourself and be yourself and the
MASTERCLASSES
49th THESSALONIKI INTERNATIONAL FILM FESTIVAL
other one is to forget yourself. So, would you say there is a way to combine those two contradictory
ways? Is it like using yourself and at the same time forgetting yourself? How do you get into the
character? How do you work?
Willem Dafoe
I think the same thing is true generally everywhere. Those are the two approaches. I don’t think
about who you are and what your personality is. I believe that this is an illusion. It’s something that
we agree on and when you play a character, you’re invited to be free of that idea of a fixed personality. And that’s a wonderful opportunity, to shift your point of view, shift your way of being but still
being connected to who you are. You’re still the engine. But I think I’m always hoping for some sort
of transformation but transformation from what? Well, it’s going to start with yourself. You know,
I watched Bobby Peru and I said, “I should just shut my mouth!” I’ve got a confession to make. I
watched that and I enjoyed it. Normally I can’t watch it, but it’s been quite some time now and I can
watch that and something comes alive from me. How that happens I don’t know.
From the audience
Hi. What is your next movie?
Willem Dafoe
I don’t know. I finished the Lars Von Trier movie last month and I really don’t know. My next movie
may be with Giada Colagrande who just happens to be my wife or the next one may be with Wim
Wenders.
From the audience
Speaking of transformations, I’m very curious about how you approached the role of Max Schreck
since we didn’t see “Shadow of the Vampire” and some of us here know the myth of who Max
Schreck was -and you approached it well, rather interestingly for me at least.
Willem Dafoe
I don’t know how many of you know this movie, I imagine a lot of you or some of you haven’t seen
it. The real story is that he’s a vampire that becomes an actor to play a vampire.
George Krassakopoulos
It was a big art house success in Greece.
Willem Dafoe
It was? Nice. The way I approached it was really simple. I had real role models. I had the original. I
had “Nosferatu”; I had a huge literal mask and otherwise mask to not hide behind, but when you
look in the mirror and you have all this make-up -I had a lot of heavy make-up- you look different,
you feel different and that opens the door and then as far as behavior and physicality are concerned, you have the model in “Nosferatu”, so you start off by copying it. And of course it’s not the
same, so then you start to deviate from that, but that’s really the starting place.
So sometimes by copying something, by finding a model, you start off by being faithful to it, but
then you move away by virtue of your limitations or by virtue of what is needed in the exercise and
you make a third thing. And I think that this always happens; you take yourself, it takes something
else, you join those two things to make a third thing and when you’ve got a strong model it’s really
great because it’s liberating you; you have a trick -I think I talked about this before, the preparationup your sleeve which is very strong in this case.
From the audience
Playing the Green Goblin, how was that like?
Willem Dafoe
Good. I liked playing the Green Goblin but not so much as the father; and it was a movie that I liked.
It wasn’t really corrupt. The movie was a nice mixture between comedy and drama and it slipped
between the two in a really nice way and also for a big production it wasn’t corrupt. You had people
that really believed in the material and were really guided by their pleasure, not just looking over
their shoulder. I’m sure there was plenty of scrutiny by the studio but I didn’t feel it.
4 9 ο Φ Ε Σ Τ Ι Β Α Λ Κ Ι Ν Η Μ ΑΤ Ο Γ ΡΑ Φ Ο Υ Θ Ε Σ Σ Α Λ Ο Ν Ι Κ Η Σ MASTERCLASSES
From the audience
This is a question from somebody who saw the movie this morning and he was wondering whether you had the history behind the story you were telling; whether you were aware of the history
behind the story in the movie.
Willem Dafoe
I was. That was one part of preparing for the movie, just so I knew the references and what we were
dealing with. But so many of Theo’s movies I love for these poetic human size moments, next to
these huge canvasses of history in the face of people, in the sense that they can’t control it. I suppose that’s very Greek.
Ms. Bistika
You haven’t received an Oscar but have had many nominations. Do tell us; it would be useful for us
because we all applaud you as a great actor and we like you today as a man; my friend here said
that you are treating us well as an audience. The other big actors don’t. What do you think it takes
to be awarded an Oscar? Sincerely.
Willem Dafoe
Timing.
Ms. Bistika
More, more, more.
Willem Dafoe
I think at this point the Oscars have become so refined in their lobbying and in the press to try to
get the nomination and there are whole campaigns made to win Oscars. First time I was nominated,
I found out because my boy’s babysitter called me up in the morning. When I was nominated the
second time, eight or ten years later, I knew there was the possibility. I had talked to all these people and all this press; I knew what time they were announcing and I was going to work that day
and someone was going to wake me up at 4.30 in the morning so if I was nominated, the TV crews
were going to be there.
I think that answers your question. There are huge campaigns now and they are controlled by
money. That’s not to say that something good isn’t rewarded; it’s just that a certain kind of movie
becomes Oscar bait or Oscar-worthy even before it is shot, just by the selection of the actor, the
support it is going to get and things like that or whether the material is serious. We all know these
things and it gets a little more and more predictable.
(off-mic comment)
No, it is what it is. Bitter? No, because I’m not in that game. But if I am in that game and lose, then I
will really be bitter. The two nominations I got were total flukes. They came out of nowhere and I’m
very proud of that. It was kind of being on its own sting, like a dark-horse candidate in politics but
I’m more talking about the machine. The machine isn’t just invented. We all are connected to it and
we all support it one way or another.
From the audience
Καλημέρα σας. Καλώς ορίσατε στην πόλη μας και στη χώρα μας. Ήθελα να ρωτήσω το εξής: Είναι
προτιμότερο ο σκηνοθέτης να σας πει: θέλω να μου ενσαρκώσεις αυτό το χαρακτήρα. Θέλω αυτά
και αυτά τα πράγματα, αλλά θέλω να μου δώσεις τη δική σου προσωπικότητα ή να σου πει θέλω
αυτό το χαρακτήρα να τον δουλέψεις έτσι και τίποτα άλλο;
Willem Dafoe
I’m good with both ways. Sometimes it’s a little hard to get started if you know what the effect is
going to be but you don’t know how to get there. Theo used to say to me: and now there will be a
long shot. And he’d say it in Italian and in French. And you’d take a glass of water and then: You cry!!
“Okay, Theo, maybe I could cry?”“No, no, CRY!” And I cried a lot but I don’t think it’s in the movie! One
thing about this idea of taking something from your past or taking something in your personality and then injecting it into a scene was very good for some actors, but for me it doesn’t work so
much because you have to anticipate what the effect is on your own.
MASTERCLASSES
49th THESSALONIKI INTERNATIONAL FILM FESTIVAL
I can deal with it if a director or somebody or something outside me says: this is what the effect
has to be. Then I can work towards that. But if I am an actor and I am saying: in this scene I have
to be sad, I’m not good at standing outside myself and making those judgments, like building a
character that way. I’m much more comfortable finding the character through applying myself to
action and as I said, pretending. So, to do substitution from my life, classically like “at that funeral I
was very sad; I’ll think of those thoughts and I’ll apply them here”, it’s only useful if you know what
the effect is.
And I’m not so interested in that. That’s interpreting something; interpreting means translating for
the audience. I don’t like to do that. I prefer to do things and to not quite know where I’m going
with them and they will take me somewhere and if there’s a good director, he’ll guide it and he’ll
frame it and it will mean something for the audience. But I don’t know if that will be necessary. And
maybe that’s a little bit irresponsible, but it allows you to address impulses and feelings that you
can’t explain and allows us to have more poetry in what we do and then think that we know a story
and we’re presenting it to the audience.
From the audience
I saw the film this morning and there were scenes you were required to perform with the camera in
your back, so we can’t see your face. What do you actually do then in terms of pretending?
Willem Dafoe
It’s the same whether the camera is here or there. I’m playing the same. Sometimes I’ve worked on
movies where I didn’t know where the camera was. For better or for worse. Sometimes you know
exactly where it is; for better or for worse. Sometimes it can be liberating and sometimes it can
make you deeply self-conscious.
From the audience
There is something like a legend or a curse around actors that have impersonated Jesus Christ;
either they had health problems or bad luck. But, as far as I know, you broke that curse.
Willem Dafoe
We hope.
From the audience
I would like to ask you how hard it is to impersonate an icon about which many people are prejudiced.
Willem Dafoe
I think that clearly from the Kazantzakis book and also from the design of this movie, the plan was
to forget that he is an icon and really address the human dimension more. So I didn’t have to address that so much.
From the audience
Hello, Mr. Dafoe. It’s great to have you here. You talked about directors and actors but you didn’t
talk about screenplay writers. Basically you have worked with some great screenplay writers. I
wanted to ask you how big a role a good screenplay actually plays in a movie. Can a good director
and some great actors change a lousy screenplay?
Willem Dafoe
Usually, screenplays are changed a lot in the shoot, mostly by the directors and less by the actors;
sometimes sporadically. For me, normally, it’s a blueprint and when you get there, the movie takes
on a life of its own. It’s a blueprint to make something. I don’t think it’s a piece of literature that we
can interpret on film. There are movies like that and they are great, but that’s not normally what the
activity is. Screenplays are very important and a good screenplay is a beautiful thing and you get
all excited and you can’t wait to be involved with one. But normally I can never tell. Maybe I’m bad
at reading screenplays. I said it before. I’m much more attracted to situations and people because
I don’t trust literature.
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4 9 ο Φ Ε Σ Τ Ι Β Α Λ Κ Ι Ν Η Μ ΑΤ Ο Γ ΡΑ Φ Ο Υ Θ Ε Σ Σ Α Λ Ο Ν Ι Κ Η Σ MASTERCLASSES
From the audience
Mr. Dafoe, I have two questions. First of all, what are your impressions of Thessaloniki and its people?
Willem Dafoe
That’s two questions?
From the audience
No, that’s the first one.
Willem Dafoe
Okay, I got here last night so I don’t have a lot to say. But to be honest, it looks very beautiful and
I love cities on water. So, I have a beautiful view from my hotel and last night I went out for dinner
and walked along the water where all the bars are and I thought that people really have a good
time here. I know it was a Friday night and a lot were out, but it has a good feeling maybe because
it’s a university town and there are a lot of students. I don’t know. But I had a good feeling so far.
From the audience
Now the second one; is it possible after the conference to take a picture of you with my sister?
Willem Dafoe
Sure.
From the audience
Thank you.
Willem Dafoe
You know, I’m tempted to say something else about my first impressions of the city but… where’s
my wife? Okay.
From the audience
Hi. From Jesus Christ up to T.S. Eliot, it seems that you have chosen to represent both sides of this
dualism that represents good and evil, as we understand it. Do you find that they actually are unified? Do we see one whole or are there two different aspects that throughout your career you managed to represent? This is one part of the question. The second part is: playing great figures, like T.S.
Eliot or Jesus Christ, does it have some sort of moral weight in your conscience after the years or is
it just a job that is done and then you completely forget about it? Thank you.
Willem Dafoe
I want to be simple. But good and evil exist together and it’s really circumstance that allows one
to come forward. Characters reveal through circumstance. Fiction characters don’t when you’re
approaching them; and of course you’ve heard it before but it’s really true: you don’t judge the
characters; you just try to give life to them. You’re trying to be them; you’re trying to see their point
of view. It’s an exercise in empathy, really, to play those characters, good or bad.
As for the other part, yes, it should give a moral weight. Maybe I’m a little brat. Once you sit with
something, you get comfortable with it and you forget. It’s like in real life; working in films and
being in the presence of someone that I really admire, but this whole thing takes time and then
you see the human side of it and then you deal with that. So, whatever it is, I trust myself. I don’t
know about moral responsibility. I trust myself so I don’t have to think so much about that moral
responsibility.
George Krassakopoulos
Unfortunately, we only have time for one more question and I think the lady there has been very
patient.
From the audience
Hello. (male voice)
George Krassakopoulos
Where is your hair?
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MASTERCLASSES
49th THESSALONIKI INTERNATIONAL FILM FESTIVAL
From the audience
I believe the film industry and especially the Hollywood industry kind of “freezes” the actors in
some roles. This has happened to great actors, like Al Pacino, the Mafia guy, or Jack Nicholson, the
psycho guy. So, have you ever felt that you have been frozen in a role and are there some characters that you couldn’t even try to play?
Willem Dafoe
When I was younger I was probably more concerned about type casting, but as I do more movies
I get asked that. But at the very beginning I was very conscious of it. I was basically playing that
heavy villain. As for your second question, there have been a couple of occasions where someone
asked me to do something and I would say: you know, it’s interesting, but I think it’s not such a
good role for me not because I’m there to win prizes but because I think you have to work with
what you have and you can adjust it with certain things. There are certain things that you can’t just
change. You have to be humble about what your capacity to change is and what is coming off you
and you’ve got to measure that.
On many occasions, the director has usually said: you idiot, that’s why I want you to do it. If you
were closer to this character, I wouldn’t be so interested. I want you to go towards it; I want to find
the air in it. That happened with many roles. So, something like T.S. Eliot, when I played him, I was a
huge fan of his work but I knew nothing about him personally and I felt this is stupid. He’s tall; he’s
more English than the English. And the guy said: yeah… And I said I’m 1.77 m tall and I’m a kid from
Wisconsin and I’m an actor, I can change, but I don’t think I physically have enough to work with.
And he said: no, I want you to go toward it. And I think -I don’t know if it was successful or not- it
was interesting enough for me to try.
George Krassakopoulos
That’s all for today, I’m afraid. I want to thank you all for being here. Thank you, Willem Dafoe.
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