Odile Decq Arhitektura kao jedrenje Architecture as Sailing

razgovarali
interviewed by fotografije photographs by
portreti portraits
Ante Nikša Bilić
© Odile Decq Benoit Cornette (ODBC)
© ODBC Stéphane Couturier (SC)
© ODBC Roland Halbe (RH)
© ODBC Luigi Filetici (LF)
© ODBC Georges Fessy (GF)
© ODBC/LABTOP (L)
Raphael Lugassy
Alan Kostrenčić
Arhitektura
kao jedrenje
Architecture
as Sailing
¶ Pariz u proljeće. Doduše vrlo kišno proljeće, međutim šarm
Pariza neodoljiv je i uz mokre cipele. Penjući se uz stepenice
dvorišne zgrade čije je golemo potkrovlje preuređeno u arhi­
tektonski studio, dojam je bliži odlasku na tulum na ne­poznatoj
adresi… Pomalo derutno stubište, kao i sav prostor doimlju se
prilično Goth Chic, najavljujući potencijalno neo­bičnu avanturu.
Odile Decq svakako ne pripada stereotipu europskog arhitekta,
duhovita, srdačna, ali izuzetno pronicljiva, posvetila nam je puna
tri sata izuzetno zanimljiva razgovora. Uz tipičan pariški šarm,
Odile je poput njene arhitekture i umjetnosti, uvijek na rubu
između ekstravagancije i promišljene jednostavnosti. Unatoč
darkerskom looku, njena vedrina i optimizam, uz vrlo jasnu
svijest o realnosti, najbolje su sublimirane u njenoj komparaciji
‒ arhi­tektura je kao jedrenje. To upućuje na mogućnost neke
radosnije arhitekture koja poput jedrenja proizlazi iz napora i
lakoće, prkošenja i suradnje između čovjeka i prirode. U ovom
vremenu krize čini se da ta jednostavna poruka sadrži puno
mudrosti.
¶ Paris in the springtime. Regardless of the rain, the charm of
Paris is irresistible despite wet shoes. Climbing the stairs of a
courtyard building to a huge loft turned into an architectural
studio, the impression is similar to ascending towards a party at
an unknown address... The somewhat decrepit staircase, as well
as the space itself, leaves an impression of Goth Chic, presaging
a potentially unusual adventure. Odile Decq definitely does
not belong to the stereotype of the European architect; she is
witty, cordial, but extremely shrewd. She also dedicated a full
three hours to us and to a quite interesting interview. Beside
her Parisian charm, Odile Decq is, like her architecture and art,
always between extravaganza and deliberate simplicity. Despite
the Goth look, her glee and optimism, with a clear awareness of
reality, are best captured in her idea of architecture as sailing. It
evokes the possibility of a happier architecture, resulting from
effort and ease, defiance and collaboration between man and
nature, just like architecture. In these times of crisis, it seems
this message conveys much wisdom.
Razgovarali u Parizu
25. travnja 2012.
Interviewed in Paris
25 April 2012
8
Odile Decq
Odile Decq
oris, number 77, year 2012
Odile Decq, Intervju
Odile Decq, Interview
9
ORIS — Možda možemo početi s Vašim posljednjim projektom. ORIS — Maybe we can start with your latest project. We
Posjetili smo ga po dolasku u Pariz i oduševili se vidjevši uživo visited it on our arrival in Paris and it is fascinating, when you
kako je elegantno uklopljen u sam delikatni kontekst poznate see it in person, how elegantly it is incorporated in the very
pariške operne kuće Palais Garnier. Arhitektonski je to vrlo the delicate context of Paris’s famous opera house, the Palais
smjela gesta, ali je istovremeno izvedeno s mnogo poštovanja Garnier. It is architecturally a very daring gesture, but at the
i razumijevanja za povijesnu zgradu natopljenu sjećanjima. same time it is done with a lot of respect and understanding
Možete li nam reći kako je započeo taj projekt i kako ste for a historical building impregnated with memory. Could
dobili ideju? ¶ ODILE DECQ — Čudna je to priča, jer sam poziv you tell us something about how this project started and
primila na putu, tijekom vikenda, jednog od rijetkih u godini how you came up with the idea? ¶ ODILE DECQ — This is a
kad putujem u Bretagnu. Bila sam na plaži kad je zazvonio very strange story, because I received a call when away on a
telefon. Netko me pitao jesam li zainteresirana raditi restoran weekend, one of my only weekends that I take every year to
u Palais Garnier. Bio je to čovjek koji je imao sastanak s jednim go to Britanny, so I was on the beach when I received a call.
mojim klijentom u Lyonu. Gledao je neke modele raznih pro­ Somebody was asking me whether I was interested in doing
jekata koje je moj klijent dobio od različitih arhitekata i onda se the restaurant in the Palais Garnier. It was somebody who had
raspitao za moj projekt te o meni. Sreli smo se nakon tri dana i had a meeting with one of my clients in Lyon. He was looking
pokazao mi je ograničenja Ministarstva kulture; ništa se nije at some models from many different projects my client had
smjelo dirati, izvana je trebalo očuvati prozirnost, bez fasade from different architects, and he asked the client about my
unutar lukova, i tako je počelo. Kad sam dobila nacrte, prva je model and who I was. We met three days later and he gave
ideja bila između lukova napraviti prozore, kad je već fasada me all the constraints from the Ministry or Culture, not to
bila zabranjena, izvesti zakrivljeni stakleni zid iza fasadnih touch anything, to keep the transparency from the outside,
lukova. Mislila sam da to možemo izvesti s vrlo prozirnim not to have the façade inside the arches but something else,
staklom, poput novog omotača koji gotovo da ne postoji. I and that’s how it started. The first idea when I received the
tako je počelo. Nakon toga sam zbog visine – prostor je visok site plans was, since it was forbidden to do the façade, to do
osam metara, a mi smo željeli da staklena membrana ide sve windows in the arches, to have this glass wall curve behind the
do stropa – nacrtala sinusoidu stakla, kako bi bez dodatnog façade arches. I was thinking if we could do that, we could do
učvršćenja dosegla tu visinu. Tako je proces počeo od te prve it with very clear glass and we could make this new envelope
ideje valovite staklene fasade iza postojećih stupova.
almost non-existent. And this is how it started. After that,
ORIS — Oduvijek me oduševljavalo kako u svojim projektima because of the height – the space is eight metres high, and we
spajate vrlo umjetnički i provokativan pristup s jednostavnim wanted the glass membrane to go continuously to the ceiling
i logičnim rješenjem arhitektonskog problema. Možda se – I drew a sinuous line of glass, to make it reach that height
možemo, za ilustraciju Vašeg načina razmišljanja, vratiti malo without additional support. It was really a process started
kroz vrijeme i na početak Vašeg rada. Počeli ste u vrijeme kad from this first idea of an undulating glass façade behind the
je Dekonstrukcija bila glavna tema arhitektonskog diskursa. existing columns.
¶ ODILE DECQ — Čak i prije toga.
ORIS — I’m always amazed how you put together in your
ORIS — Možete li usporediti svoja razmišljanja kad ste po­ projects a very artistic and provocative approach and on
činjali i svoj pristup danas? Je li se što promijenilo? ¶ ODILE the other hand quite a simple and logical solution to the
DECQ — Mnogo toga. Kad sam počinjala u osamdesetima, architectural problems. Maybe, as an illustration of your way of
bilo je to vrijeme kad je Richard Meyer bio posvuda. Bilo je thinking, we can move back through time a little and towards
to vrijeme kasnog modernizma i to smo mi u uredu pratili, the beginning of your work. You actually started in a time
pokušavajući pronaći način kako da počnemo s radom na svoj when Deconstruction was a topical theme in architectural
način. ¶ U to se vrijeme pojavila Dekonstrukcija i to mi je bilo discourse... ¶ ODILE DECQ — Even before that.
mnogo zanimljivije jer je to bio pristup kako dekomponirati. ORIS — Can you compare your thinking when you started and
U svom sam radu analizirala dekomponiranje komponenti your approach today? Has it changed? ¶ ODILE DECQ — A lot.
projekta, programa ili nečeg drugog uz ponovnu artikulaciju When I started in the 1980s, it was really a time when Richard
na novi način, to je bila moja metoda dekonstrukcije. Kad Meyer was everywhere. It was the time of late modernism and
smo počeli raditi na Banque Populaire, koji je bio naš prvi we were looking at that in the office, trying to find a way how
veliki projekt, počeli smo s glavnim holom kao objektom to start the work by ourselves. ¶ At that time Deconstruction
10
oris, broj 77, godina 2012 oris, number 77, year 2012
Restoran Fantom u operi
Garnier, Pariz, Francuska,
2010.
Phantom Restaurant of
the Palais Garnier, Paris,
France, 2010
(RH)
Odile Decq, Intervju
Odile Decq, Interview
11
izvan zgrade. Nakon toga, polako tijekom rada na projektu,
ponovno smo integrirali hol unutar zgrade jer smo mislili
da u to vrijeme Francuzi nisu bili spremni za projekte
dekonstrukcije. Francuska je zemlja monolitnih projekata.
Zbog te tendencije ka monolitnoj klasičnoj arhitekturi
arhitekti su uvijek gradili ulaze u središtu simetričnih zgrada;
bila je to tradicija u Francuskoj, čak i u modernizmu. Doduše,
Le Corbusier je radio nešto drukčije, ali više kao iznimku nego
pravilo. U to vrijeme mi smo mislili da nismo klasičari, nismo
radili simetriju, više nas je zanimao dezekvilibrij i asimetrija,
graditi nešto poput prolaza, ili nešto s prijelazom i tako dalje...
Ali, na kraju smo izveli monolitni projekt jer je zaista bio
potreban kao takav, budžet nije bio dovoljan za dekompoziciju
zgrade. No, u isto vrijeme pokušavali smo naći načina kako
bismo pomakli ili dislocirali ulaz u zgradu. Poanta je bila da
smo zaista diskutirali kako osmisliti BPO. Nakon te zgrade
u Francuskoj su nas kvalificirali kao hi-tech, zbog sustava
strukturalne fasade na kojem smo radili u suradnji s Peterom
Riceom. Pratili smo razvoj tog hi-techa u Velikoj Britaniji.
Nakon nekoliko godina rada na tim detaljima i gradnji, kad
sam počela raditi, na primjer u Rimu, govorila sam u uredu
da više nismo u hi-tech dobu. Draži mi je bio soft-tech, što
znači vrlo visoka tehnologija, bez potrebe da se pokaže na van.
appeared, and this was much more interesting to me, because
it was an approach of how to decompose. It was analyzed
in my work at that time, of decomposing the components
of a project, components of a programme, components of
something, and rearticulating them in a way, so it was my
way of deconstruction. When we started working on Banque
Populaire, the first major project we did, we started by working
on the main hall as an object outside the building. After that,
slowly through the process of working on the project, we
reintegrated the hall inside the building, because we thought
at that time people in France were not ready for deconstructive
projects. France is a country of monolithic projects. Because
of this tendency of a long process of monolithic classical
architecture, architects were always building a symmetrical
entrance in the centre of a symmetrical building, it was really
traditional in France, even in modernism. Well, Le Corbusier
did something a bit different, but more as an exception than
a rule. At this time, we were thinking we were not classical,
we were not doing symmetry, we were much more interested
in the question of disequilibrium, dissymmetry, having
something much more like a passage, or something with a
transition and so on... But in the end, we did a monolithic
project, because it was really necessary to have a monolithic
Ovako kako danas gradim, to je vrlo profinjeno što se gradnje
tiče, detalja, osmišljavanja zgrade, ali je istovremeno sve
fluidno, manje vidljivo, na neki način. Jutros sam bila u Lyonu
jer ondje gradimo vrlo jednostavnu zgradu, samo dva kvadra,
jedan se pomiče prema obali rijeke. No, kako bismo postigli
da su četiri kata izmaknuta jedan iznad drugog, moramo
imati golemu konstrukciju koja je doista složena. To je više
kao most ili gradnja infrastrukture. Objekt je jednostavan,
ali je zaista složen što se tiče konstrukcije, načina na koji
gradimo dvostruku fasadu i tako dalje. Zanimljiv je Musée
des Confluences na drugoj strani poluotoka u Lyonu koji gradi
Coop Himmelb(l)au. Vidimo kako se podiže konstrukcija,
jutros smo gledali. Vrlo je jednostavna, a objekt će biti vrlo
složen. To je posve suprotno od onoga što ja radim. Moje
zgrade izgledaju jednostavno, a imaju složene strukture, a
drugi je način složenost onoga što vidite na jednostavnoj
konstrukciji.
ORIS — Lebbeus Woods jednom je rekao da je arhitektura
antigravitacija. Vaš rad uspoređuju s objektima u zraku, a
ne na tlu. ¶ ODILE DECQ — U potpunosti se slažem da se
arhitektura čitavo vrijeme bori protiv gravitacije i sviđa mi se
ta ideja. Koristim to u predavanjima. Pokušavam se sve više
oteti gravitaciji. Izgradili smo jedan objekt 2007. godine u
umjetničkoj galeriji u ovom kvartu Pariza. Objekt je nastao iz
skice koju sam nacrtala za ljude u svom studiju, pod nazivom
Dinamični ekvilibrij, gdje postoje dva suprotna utega s crtom
i potporom u jednoj točki. Sve je stabilno, međutim potrebno
je vrlo malo da postane nestabilno. Za mene je gravitacija
stabilnost. Volim kad se arhitektura doima nestabilnom, kao
da će svaki čas otići, odletjeti ili slično.
ORIS — Vaš lanjski projekt Anisotropy u Los Angelesu vrlo je
zanimljiv eksperiment osjetilnog iskustva i dezorijentacije.
Smatram ga posebno zanimljivim jer se odmiče od arhitekture
objekta ka iskustvenoj arhitekturi, arhitekturi kao iskustvu.
Možete li nam ispričati kako je projekt počeo i koje su Vam
bile namjere? ¶ ODILE DECQ — Objekt ove instalacije trebao
je apsolutno poremetiti percepciju prostora, ostavljajući
do­jam bivanja negdje drugdje ili kao da postoji neki drugi
prostor koji zapravo ne postoji, ali ga vidite kao odraz na
zidovima. Igrajući se s nagibom reflektirajućih zidova i zi­
dova koji se zrcale jedan u drugom, a nisu nagnuti na isti
način, apsolutno iskrivljavate percepciju. Volim tu ideju. Već
nekoliko tjedana razmišljam o tome jer se ne radi samo o
diskusiji, nego o instalaciji koju sam prošlog rujna postavila
u jednoj umjetničkoj galeriji u Parizu, s istom temom ogle­
dala koja mijenjaju percepciju prostora. Sad to sve više ra­
dim, bavim se umjetnošću, ali ovog trena to ne unosim u
oris, broj 77, godina 2012 oris, number 77, year 2012
Odile Decq, Intervju
Banque Populaire
de l’Ouest, Rennes,
Francuska, 1991.
Banque Populaire de
l’Ouest, Rennes,
France, 1991
(SC)
12
Homéostasie
(Dinamični ekvilibrij),
Pariz, Francuska,
2007., Galerie Polaris
Homéostasie (Dynamic
Equilibrium), Paris,
France, 2007, Galerie
Polaris
(ODBC)
one, the budget was not so high that you could decompose
a building. But at the same time we were trying to find a way
to slide or dislocate an entrance in a building. It was a way we
were really discussing how to conceive the BPO. After that
building, we were qualified in France as hi-tech, because of
the structural system of the façade that we worked on with
Peter Rice. We were really looking at the development of all
these hi-tech in buildings in Great Britain. After some years
of working on these details and construction, when I started
working, for example in Rome, I was always saying to the
office that we were no longer in the time of hi-tech. I would
prefer soft-tech – being very high technology without training,
without the need to demonstrate that outside. It’s how I
build now, it’s really sophisticated in terms of construction,
in terms of detail, in terms of conceiving a building, but at
the same time, everything is fluid, everything is less shown,
in a way. This morning I was in Lyons, because we are building
a very simple building, with just two parallelepipeds, one is
shifting; one is going away to the river bank. But to have this
part, which is four floors cantilevered above each other, we
have to have a huge structure that is really complicated. It is
much more like a bridge or the construction of infrastructure.
It’s a very simple object, but it’s really complex in terms of
Odile Decq, Interview
13
14
oris, broj 77, godina 2012 oris, number 77, year 2012
projekte. Možda na neki način toga ima u projektima, ali
jednostavnije i minimalnije. Nedavno sam se pitala kako
mogu ono što znam o umjetnosti vratiti u arhitekturu. Na
primjer, za dva mjeseca u Rennesu otvaramo FRAC, možda
ste to vidjeli na internetskim stranicama. To je crni volumen
s urezom u sredini, a iznutra je prostor nevjerojatan. Dan
nakon otvaranja otvorit ćemo izložbu u umjetničkoj galeriji
u Rennesu. Sadržavat će neke dijelove s te zgrade. Ideja je
vidjeti što radim i vratiti se arhitekturi. Neobično je tako
raditi na dvije različite razine. Jednom sam to već napravila
krajem 1980-ih. Izradili smo modele koje smo nazvali Ma­
quette Invraisemblable. Bila je to zbirka od deset maketa
koje smo izradili s obzirom na projekte tijekom osamdesetih.
Izgledali su poput slika na zidu, ali su bili 3D modeli i izradili
smo ih na istoj crnoj površini. Izražavali smo koncept tih
projekata. Sjećam se jednog modela za stambenu zgradu
koji je sadržavao perspektivu s pločnika blizu zgrade, on je
poslužio za formiranje same zgrade. Nadalje, za jedan drugi
natječaj, iskoristili smo tu maketu na lokaciji i rekli: ‘OK, sad
ćemo izgraditi ovakvu zgradu.’ Vrlo je neobično napraviti neki
koncept da se izrazi projekt i poslije iskoristiti taj koncept kao
stvarnu stambenu zgradu. Odnedavno stvarno razmišljam o
tome kako da moju umjetnost vratim u arhitekturu.
structure, the way we build the façade with a double-skin and
so on. It is interesting, on the other side of the peninsula in
Lyons, Coop Himmelb(l)au have started to build the Musée
des Confluences. We see the structure going up, we were
looking at it this morning. The structure is really simple, and
the object is going to be very complicated. It’s exactly the
opposite of what I do. My building looks very simple with a
very complex structure, and the other one is very complex in
terms of what you see, but the structure is very simple.
ORIS — Lebbeus Woods once said that architecture is antigravity. Your work is compared with objects in the air, not
objects on the ground. ¶ ODILE DECQ — I totally agree that
architecture is fighting against gravity all the time, and I love
that idea. I use it in my lectures. I’m trying to escape gravity
more and more. We built an object in an art gallery in this
area of Paris in 2007. The object derived from a sketch I
drew for the people in my office called Dynamic Equilibrium,
where you have two opposite weights with a line and one
point of support and you have something which is stable, but
at the same time it needs almost nothing to make it unstable.
Gravity for me is stability. I like to give the impression that
architecture is unstable or that it could go, fly off or do
something.
Paviljon 8 i restoran
Archipel, Lyon,
Francuska, 2007. – (u
izgradnji), renderi
Odile Decq, Intervju
Odile Decq, Interview
15
Pavillion 8 and
Archipel restaurant,
Lyon, France, 2007 –
(under construction),
renderings
(L)
16
ORIS — Kako je počeo Vaš interes za umjetnost? ¶ ODILE
DECQ — Počelo je od samog početka jer sam dvije godine
studirala povijest umjetnosti, prije arhitekture. Kad sam
bila mlada djevojka, nisam bila sigurna mogu li se baviti
arhitekturom budući da sam djevojka. Otkrila sam da se
mogu upisati na studij, položila prijemni i nakon toga postala
arhitekt. U to vrijeme nije mnogo žena radilo kao arhitekti.
Čak su mi i roditelji ponekad govorili da je to glupo, da nikad
neću biti arhitekt jer je to za ženu nemoguće.
ORIS — Postoji li ‘rodna arhitektura’? ¶ ODILE DECQ — Mislim
da ne. Postoji samo arhitektura koju rade razne osobe, bez
obzira na spol, ali ponekad kad to kažem, odgovore mi: ‘Da,
znate, ali kad pažljivo pogledate ....’ To je tipično pitanje kad
žena daje intervju. Ja sam žena, pa što onda? (smije se)
ORIS — Postavio sam to pitanje jer u zadnje vrijeme u dis­ku­
sijama o arhitekturi sudjeluju i neke feminističke teoretičarke.
¶ ODILE DECQ — Znam, znam... Ali to me ne zanima. (smije se)
ORIS — Ako se zadržimo na pitanju ženske arhitekture,
nekako je logična usporedba između Zahe Hadid i Vas.
Postoje sličnosti, ali istovremeno i mnogo razlika. Započele
ste gotovo u isto vrijeme, u počecima Dekonstrukcije. Ono što
je jednako tako zanimljivo jest da ste Vi otvarali svoj Muzej
suvremene umjetnosti u Rimu (MACRO) u isto vrijeme kad je
Zaha otvarala Maxxi. ¶ ODILE DECQ — Bio je to velik problem
jer kad sam osvojila taj natječaj, to je bilo godinu dana nakon
što je Zaha osvojila MAXXI. U to se vrijeme nije zvao MAXXI,
a moj se projekt nije zvao MACRO. Kad smo osvojili natječaj,
počeli smo raditi s ravnateljem prvo na imenu. U suradnji s
njim smo gradu predložili naziv MACRO ili Muzej suvremene
umjetnosti u Rimu, i kad je to ime postalo javno, Zahin
je muzej nazvan MAXXI ili Muzej umjetnosti 21. stoljeća,
naravno i zato jer je maksi veće od makro. I tako je počelo
natjecanje. Ravnatelji su se natjecali i, što je još gore, to
je bilo 2010., Zaha je svoj muzej otvarala u svibnju, a moj
je ravnatelj odlučio istog dana održati ‘pred-otvaranje’.
Možete li zamisliti dva otvaranja u isto vrijeme, natjecanje
oko prijema i svega? Novine i časopisi i svi ostali govorili su:
‘Odile je rekla ovo, Zaha je rekla ono.’ Posvuda po novinama,
puno se pričalo o tome.
ORIS — U takvoj situaciji arhitektu zaista nije ugodno. ¶ ODILE
DECQ — Svi su govorili: ‘A dvije dame rade na muzejima, a oba
su u Rimu.’ Nevjerojatno.
ORIS — Samo smo usput spomenuli da ste se bavili i edu­ka­
cijom. Radite li to i dalje? ¶ ODILE DECQ — Ne, već pet godina.
Prestala sam podučavati, ali su me 2007. izabrali za dekana
na mom fakultetu. Više ne podučavam, upravljam, ali i to je
mnogo. Pola vremena provodim na fakultetu.
ORIS — Your project Anisotropy for Los Angeles made
last year is a very interesting experiment with sensory
experience and state disorientation. I find it of particular
interest because it makes a shift from object-architecture to
experienced architecture, architecture as experience. Can you
tell us something about how this project started and what
your intention with it was? ¶ ODILE DECQ — The object of
this installation was to disturb absolutely the perception of
space, to give an impression of being somewhere else or an
impression that there is another space which doesn’t exist
but which you see in the reflection on the walls. By playing
with the obliquity of the walls and walls reflecting on each
other, not inclined the same way, you distort absolutely the
question of perception. I love that idea. It has posed me a
question for some weeks now, because it is not just to speak
about that, because I was thinking of this installation and I did
an installation in an art gallery in Paris last September with
the same question of having mirrors changing the perception
of the space. I do that more and more now, working on art,
but for the moment I don’t bring that back in my projects.
Maybe, in a way, I use this in my projects and but more simply
or minimally. I was asking myself this question very recently
of how I can bring what I do now in art back into architecture.
For example, we will open the FRAC in Rennes in two months,
maybe you have seen it on our website, it’s a black volume
with a cut in the middle, and the space inside is incredible.
The day after the opening, we will open an exhibition in an
art gallery in Rennes. It will contain pieces coming from this
building. My idea is to look at what I’m doing and go back to
architecture. This is a strange way to work on these two very
different scales. I did it once before at the end of the 1980s.
We did models we called ‘Maquette Invraisemblable’. It was
a collection of ten models we made after looking back on the
projects we did in the 1980s. They were like paintings on the
walls, but they were models, since they were in 3D, and we
made them on the same black surface. We were expressing
the concept of the project in these models. I remember one
model that we did for one of the housing buildings we were
doing at the time, and it contained a perspective from the
pavement close to the building, like the formation of the
building itself. Furthermore, for another competition, we
used this model on the site and said ‘Ok, we will do the
building like that now.’ It’s a very strange way of having done
something conceptually to express one project and after that
you will use that concept as a real housing building. In recent
days, I was really thinking about how I can bring my art back
into architecture.
ORIS — Kako Vam se to sviđa i kako se to odražava na Vaš rad ORIS — How did your interest in art start? ¶ ODILE DECQ — u uredu? ¶ ODILE DECQ — To su dva posla s punim radnim It started from the very beginning, because I was studying
vremenom, i to sve govori. U proteklih pet godina nisam imala history of art for two years before I studied architecture.
vremena ni za što zbog dva posla. Ubuduće ću pratiti kako When I was a young girl, I was not sure whether I could
će se stvari odvijati jer je biti dekan zaista poseban posao. do architecture since I was a girl. I discovered I could go
Netko mi je jednom rekao: ‘Znaš, radit ćeš s dijelom mozga to the school of architecture, I passed the entry exam and
koji nikad prije nisi koristila.’ I to je istina jer otkriješ da je after that I became an architect. At that time, not too many
ravnati fakultetom nešto posve drukčije od podučavanja ili women were architects. These were the times when even
upravljanja uredom. Međutim, istovremeno ti daje vrlo važnu my parents were telling me it was stupid, that I would never
snagu jer stalno moraš objašnjavati što želiš i kamo želiš da be an architect because it was impossible for a woman to
studij ide, moraš uvjeriti nastavnike, razgovarati s njima, be an architect.
misliti o pedagogiji, koga pozvati da predaje. No, zanimljivo ORIS — Is there such a as ‘gender architecture’? ¶ ODILE
je u smislu razumijevanja što se događa u arhitekturi. Na DECQ — I don’t think so. There is just architecture done by
početku ovih pet godina, korak po korak, otkrivala sam mlađu different persons, whatever the gender, but sometimes when I
generaciju arhitekata, od 30 ili 40 godina koji rade apsolutno say that they tell me: ‘Yes, but you know, if you look carefully…’
drukčije. Na početku smo govorili o arhitektima zvijezdama, This question is typical when someone interviews a women
ali se istovremeno pojavila nova generacija koja raste, uopće architect. I’m a woman, but so what? (laughs)
ne razmišlja o zvijezdama, zainteresirana za socijalna pitanja ORIS — I asked you this question because in recent times
u arhitekturi. Mislim da je to danas vrlo važno. Rade sa we have had some feminist theoreticians in architectural
zajednicama, poput Teddyja Cruza u San Diegu. Također sam discourse. ¶ ODILE DECQ — I know, I know… I’m not
na fakultet pozvala jednoga mladog arhitekta iz Bombaja. interested in that. (laughs)
Pozivam sve više arhitekata iz ove kategorije jer mislim da je ORIS — If we stay on the female architect issue, somehow the
to prava budućnost arhitekture: socijalna pitanja središnje su comparison between Zaha Hadid and you logically comes to
pitanje arhitekture.
mind. There is some similarity, but at the same time a lot of
ORIS — Problem javnog prostora povezan je i s ovim big differences. You started almost at the same time, in the
društvenim aspektom. ¶ ODILE DECQ — Da, vratimo se wake of Deconstruction. What is also interesting is that you
urbanim pitanjima. Naime, između osamdesetih i devedesetih opened your Museum of Contemporary Art in Rome (MACRO)
arhitekti se nisu toliko bavili urbanim jer je to bilo vrijeme almost at the same time as Zaha was opening Maxxi. ¶ ODILE
mnogih gradnji, kad se arhitekturu smatralo objektom. Mislim DECQ — And it was a big problem because when I won the
da je sad s tim gotovo. Sustav zvijezda zaista je bio negativna competition it was just one year after Zaha had won the Maxxi.
pojava u polju arhitekture. Uništavalo je samo ideju arhitekture It was not called Maxxi at the time, and my project was not
jer se ona previše bavila objektima koje možete kupiti i uvesti called Macro. As soon as we won the competition, we started
kad i gdje želite, ali mislim da se arhitektura treba raditi samo working with the director on the name first. Together with
za jedno mjesto. Projektirate za jedno mjesto; ne možete him, we proposed the name ‘Macro’ to the city, meaning
imati istu zgradu na mnogo različitih mjesta jer su kontekst i Museum of Contemporary Art in Rome, and as soon as this
uvjeti lokacije vrlo važni. Tako ja mislim, i time se razlikujem name became known, Zaha’s museum was called Maxxi,
od Hadidove, jer se arhitektura zasnovana na objektima može meaning Museum of Art of the 21st century, also because
raditi bilo gdje. To može biti cipela, prsten ili nešto drugo, nije ‘maxi’ is bigger than ‘macro’. And it all started a competition.
važno što.
The directors were competing and, what’s worse, it was in
ORIS — Ako se želite odmaknuti od arhitekture kao objekta, 2010, and Zaha opened her museum in May, and my director
onda Vaše umjetničke intervencije zapravo pokazuju vrlo at the time decided to have a ‘pre-opening’ on the same day.
zanimljiv način kako uvući korisnike u arhitekturu, kako Can you imagine having two openings at the same time, and
se pomaknuti od konzumenta do sudionika. ¶ ODILE having a competition about the parties, about everything?
DECQ — Sviđa mi se ta ideja, da to nije samo objekt za The newspapers and magazines and everybody was showing
gledanje. To govorim, ali istovremeno za galeriju u Rennesu the two and saying ‘Odile said that, Zaha said that’. It was
pripremam nešto što je više o objektima i nekim crtežima.
everywhere in the newspapers, so there was really a big
ORIS — Imate širok raspon projekata i interesa, od vrlo malih, discussion about it.
oris, broj 77, godina 2012 oris, number 77, year 2012
Odile Decq, Intervju
Odile Decq, Interview
17
FRAC (Fonds Régional
d’Art Contemporain
Bretagne), Rennes,
Francuska, 2012.
FRAC (Fonds Régional
d’Art Contemporain
Bretagne), Rennes,
France, 2012
(RH)
FRAC (Fonds Régional
d’Art Contemporain
Bretagne), Rennes,
Francuska, 2012., tlocrt
18
oris, broj 77, godina 2012 FRAC (Fonds Régional
d’Art Contemporain
Bretagne), Rennes,
France, 2012, plan
ORIS — It can be really irritating for architects to be put in
this situation. ¶ ODILE DECQ — Everyone was saying: ‘Ah,
two ladies working on museums, with both museums in
Rome.’ It was incredible.
ORIS — We have just briefly mentioned that you have been
involved in education. Are you still involved in education?
¶ ODILE DECQ — No, not for the past five years. I’ve stopped
teaching but I was elected director of my school in 2007. I’m
not teaching any more, I’m the director, but it’s a lot. I spend
half my time at the school.
ORIS — How do you like it and how does it reflect on your
work in the office? ¶ ODILE DECQ — They are two full-time
jobs, so that speaks for itself. In this past five years I haven’t
had time for anything because of these two jobs. In the future,
I will look at how it is reacting, because it is a really specific
job to be a director. Someone once told me: ‘You know, it
will work on some part of the brain you never used before.’
And it’s true, because you discover that managing a school
is something absolutely different from teaching and from
managing an office. However, at the same time, it gives a
very important strength to your thinking, because you have
to explain all the time what you want and where you want
the school to go, you have to convince the teachers, you have
to discuss with them, you have to think about the pedagogy,
you have to think about whom you can invite to lecture. So
it’s really interesting in terms of how to understand what
happens in architecture. I was really interested by the fact
that at the beginning of these five years I discovered step by
step a young generation of architects around 30, 40 years of
age, working absolutely differently. At the beginning we were
talking about star architects, but at the same time there is a
new generation that is growing, absolutely unconcerned by
stardom, and much more interested in the social question in
architecture. I think it’s really important today. People are
working with communities, like Teddy Cruz in San Diego. I
have also invited a young architect to come from Bombay. I am
inviting more and more architects from this category, because
I think it is really the future of architecture: social issues are
the crucial question in architecture.
ORIS — The problem of public space is also connected with
this social aspect. ¶ ODILE DECQ — Yes. Moving again to
urban questions, because from the 1980s and 1990s architects
were not concerned so much by urban, because it was really a
time with lots of building, when architecture was considered
as an object. I think that now that time is finished. The star
system was really negative in the field of architecture. It
was something that was really destroying the idea of what
oris, number 77, year 2012
3D model
Odile Decq, Intervju
3D model
FRAC (Fonds Régional d’Art Contemporain
Bretagne), Rennes, Francuska, 2012.
Odile Decq, Interview
FRAC (Fonds Régional d’Art Contemporain
Bretagne), Rennes, France, 2012
19
(RH)
20
umjetničkih objekata i dizajna, preko interijera i izlagačkih
prostora do vrlo velikih projekata koji se bave urbanizmom.
Kako se mijenja Vaš pristup prema mjerilu projekta i ovisi li o
njemu? Kako reagirate na specifične probleme koji se javljaju
zbog mjerila projekta? ¶ ODILE DECQ — Čudno je to pitanje
mjerila, jer studirala sam arhitekturu, a nakon toga nešto
urbanizma, pa se vrlo lako igram s tim različitim mjerilima, od
arhitekture do urbanizma. Bojala sam se projektirati objekte
jer nije lako misliti o malim objektima. Sjećam se početka
2000., kad smo za UNESCO napravili prvi naslonjač, tvrtka
je napravila prototip pa su ga donijeli u naš ured. Pogledala
sam ga i rekla: ‘Premalen je.’ Bila sam sigurna da je premalen.
Rekla sam da nešto ne valja i zatražila nove izmjere. Sjela sam
u naslonjač, bio je udoban, ali jednostavno premalen, pa sam
ih molila da izrade veći. Napravili su drugi prototip, ali taj je
bio apsolutno neudoban. Onda sam shvatila da je prvi predmet
koji sam dizajnirala bio manji od mog tijela. Bio je to naslonjač,
sad je stolac. Sad to znam raditi, ali na početku me objekt
izne­nadio veličinom. To nije nešto što te okružuje, stvarno
je samo predmet na koji sjedneš. Čudno sam se osjećala; na­
pravili smo modele, uzeli otiske različitih ljudi iz ureda kako
bismo ih manipulirali i shvatili koji je najbolji oblik. Bili smo
pragmatični, mislili smo na tijelo i kako će ga stolac obuhvatiti.
Mnogo arhitekata dizajnira stolce, ponekad su zaista lijepi, ali
apsolutno neudobni. Htjela sam izraditi lijep, ali udoban stolac
koji odgovara tijelu. Upravo sam se zato bojala dizajna.
ORIS — Takvo je razmišljanje o tijelu i o tome kako se
arhitektura odnosi prema tijelu, prisutno u gotovo svim
Va­šim projektima. Restoran u operi također je vrlo tjelesan.
¶ ODILE DECQ — Da, zato što me uvijek brine činjenica da
se tijelo mora lako kretati prostorom ili reagirati na prostor,
ili mu prostor daje mogućnost kretanja zbog načina na koji
je izveden, te tjera tijelo na kretanje. Tijelo u prostoru mora
biti slobodno. Ponekad postoje neka ograničenja, ali mora se
moći kretati i to stalno. Zapravo je to tema i u MACRO-u. Za
mene je kretanje kroz muzej, različite mogućnosti kretanja po
muzeju, zaista važno. Dati posjetiteljima mogućnosti da sami
biraju put kojim će se kretati po muzeju i otkrivati umjetnost
na tom putovanju.
ORIS — Kad počinjete tako misliti, pretpostavljam da je to
vaša intuicija. Taj je pristup neobičan, posebno u vrijeme
kad ste studirali arhitekturu. Vjerojatno je Vaša inovacija.
¶ ODILE DECQ — Možda je to zato što uopće nisam studirala
jer smo stalno štrajkali tijekom mog studija u sedamdesetima
(smije se). Uvijek govorim da sam obavila šest godina studija
arhitekture, ali sam od toga četiri godine štrajkala. Studij
je bio tipičan za godine nakon 1968., nešto nevjerojatno.
architecture is, because the architecture was considered too
much an object you can buy and you can import whatever it
is wherever you want, but I think that architecture is always
done for one place only. You design for one place; you can’t
have the same building in many places, because the context
and the condition of the place are most important. It’s the way
I think that I’m very different from Hadid now; because objectbased architecture can be done anywhere. It could be a shoe, it
could be a ring or something else, and it doesn’t matter.
ORIS — If you want to go further away from architecture as
an object, then actually your artistic intervention shows a very
interesting way how to get users of architecture more involved
in it, how to move from consumer to participant. ¶ ODILE
DECQ — I like that idea, that it’s not just an object to look
at. I say that, but at the same time what I am preparing for
the gallery in Rennes is much more about objects and some
dra­wings.
ORIS — You have very wide range of projects and interests,
from very small ones, artistic objects and design, through
interiors or exhibition spaces to very large ones which deal
with urbanism. How does your approach differ according to
the scale of project, or is it independent of it? How do you
react to specific problems which arise from the problem of
the scale of projects? ¶ ODILE DECQ — The question of scale
is very strange, because I have been educated as an architect,
and after that I did some studies in urbanism, so I play with
these two scales quite easily, from architecture to urbanism. I
was very afraid of designing objects because it is not so easy
to think about little objects. I remember at the beginning of
2000 when we did the first armchair for UNESCO, a company
was making a prototype, and they brought the prototype to our
office. I was looking at it and said: ‘It’s too small.’ I was sure it
was too small. I said that something was wrong and asked for
another measurement. I sat in the chair, it was comfortable, but
it was simply too small, so I asked to make it bigger. They made
another prototype, and it was absolutely uncomfortable. Then,
I realized that it was actually the first object I designed that
was smaller than my body. It was an armchair, it is a chair now.
I can do it now, but at the beginning I was really surprised by
the object itself, because of the scale. It’s not an object which
surrounds you; it is really just an object you can sit on. I was
very surprised, and I had this very strange impression. We did
the renders, we took some imprints with different people from
the office to manipulate and understand what exactly the best
shape is. We were very pragmatic, we looked at the body and
how the chair can fit the body. Lot of architects were designing
chairs, sometimes they are quite beautiful, but absolutely un­
Nije tako bilo na drugim fakultetima. Morala sam i raditi u
arhitektonskom uredu, ali ne kao arhitekt. Pisala sam zahva­
lju­jući studiju povijesti umjetnosti. Taj arhitekt, Phillippe Bou­
don, pisao je knjige o teoriji arhitekture. S njim sam radila če­tiri
godine, s njim pisala knjige. Obično smo sjedili na istoj stra­
ni stola, ja bih gledala što je on napisao i komentirala. Bilo je
čudno tako raditi. Ondje sam naučila povijest arhitekture jer
smo proučavali arhitekturu, arhitekte, dok se na fakultetu u isto
vrijeme ništa nije događalo. Nakon diplome nisam znala ni kako
nacrtati perspektivu, nisam znala projektirati niti vidjeti što se
događa u presjeku, apsolutno nisam bila obrazovana, pa sam
sve to morala naučiti kroz vlastite projekte.
ORIS — Kad već govorite o tom vremenu, koliko kontrakultura,
pop-glazba, alternativna glazba, koliko takve stvari utječu
na Vaš rad ili Vas? ¶ ODILE DECQ — Mislim da sve utječe na
arhitekturu. Sve oko nas utječe na arhitekturu, što znači ne
samo umjetnost, već i glazba, ples, kazalište, opera, hrana,
društvo, fizika, istraživanja u biologiji, sve!
ORIS — Prvi Vaš rad koji sam vidio bio je u časopisu Do­mus,
most u Nanterre. U to sam vrijeme završavao studij arhi­
tek­ture. Zanimala me je posebna vrsta alternativne mu­zike
tzv. gotička glazba. Kad sam vidio Vašu fotografiju, totalno
oris, broj 77, godina 2012 oris, number 77, year 2012
Odile Decq, Intervju
comfortable. I wanted to have a beautiful but comfortable chair,
to fit the body. It’s exactly why I was frightened by design.
ORIS — That line of thinking, about the body and how
architecture is related to the body, is present in almost all
of your projects. The restaurant in the opera is also very
body-orientated. ¶ ODILE DECQ — Yes, because I am always
concerned by the fact that the body has to move easily in a
space, or you can react with your body to the space, or the
space gives you the possibility to move because of the way
it’s done, makes you move inside it. The body has to be free
in the space. It sometimes has some constraints, but it has
to be able to move and to be always in movement. It is really
the question of Macro. For me, travelling around a museum,
having different possibilities to travel around a museum was
really important. Because to go, to give the public going to
the museum the possibility to choose the path they want to
travel through the museum, and to discover the art through
that travel through the museum.
ORIS — When you start thinking in that way, I guess it is
somehow your intuition. This kind of approach is unusual,
especially in a time when you have gone through architectural
school. It’s probably your invention. ¶ ODILE DECQ — It’s
Maquettes
invraisemblables, kraj
80-tih, model
Maquettes
invraisemblables, end
of 80, model
(GF)
Odile Decq, Interview
21
MACRO, Muzej
suvremene umjetnosti,
Rim, Italija, 2010.
MACRO, Museum of
Contemporary Art,
Rome, Italy, 2010
(LF)
maybe because I wasn’t educated at all, because we were
always on strike during my studies in the 1970s (laughs). I
always say I did six years of architectural studies, but four
years of that time I was on strike. It was post-’68 in the school
of architecture, it was really something incredible there. It was
not like that in all the schools. I needed to work during my
studies, so I was working in an architectural office, but not
as an architect. I was working as a writer, thanks to my study
of art history. This architect, Phillippe Boudon, was writing
books about the theory of architecture. I worked with him
me oduševila zbog asocijacije s grupom Siouxsie and the
Banshees, basisticom iz grupe Sisters of Mercy. ¶ ODILE
DECQ — To su bila dva moja omiljena benda u to vrijeme i
često sam odlazila u London na koncerte jer Sisters of Mercy
nisu dolazili u Francusku. Pjevač je rekao da je nekad imao
djevojku Francuskinju koju je mrzio, pa je Francuska bila
zabranjena, no sad svira i u Francuskoj. Lani sam kupila kartu,
ali nisam mogla otići zbog nekog sastanka. Moram na koncert.
Pjevač je zaista dojmljiv. A Siouxsie je isto bila posebna.
ORIS — Zanima li Vas još takva glazba? ¶ ODILE DECQ — Da,
i imam ih na mobitelu. Imam sve CD-e gotičke glazbe iz tog
razdoblja. U osamdesetima je u Londonu bila tržnica Great
Gear Market, u ulici King’s Road, gdje se svega moglo naći,
kafića, odjeće, ploča, knjiga, postera, svega. Onamo se moralo
ići. Svakog smo tjedna išli u London, ili svaka dva, slušati
glazbu jer smo u tim grupama imali prijatelje. Istovremeno
smo išli na londonske dokove. Kad bismo vikend proveli u
Londonu, išli bismo na koncert, ali bismo nedjeljom gledali
zgrade i građevine na dokovima i tako smo shvatili kako graditi
čelične konstrukcije. Gledali smo te detalje i transformacije na
dokovima. Posjećivali bismo i muzeje suvremene umjetnosti.
Bila je to odlična kombinacija za vikend. Deset sam godina
for four years, writing books with him. We used to sit on
either side of the table, I was looking at what he was writing
and commenting at the same time. It was a very strange way
of working. I did my sort of history of architecture during
my studies at this time there, because we were looking at
architecture, looking at architects, but when I was going to
school, nothing happened. We were on strike all the time. So
it is really more intuitive because I was not really educated.
After my degree, I did not know how to draw a perspective, I
did not know how to design, I wasn’t really able to see what
happens in section, I was absolutely uneducated, so I had to
learn that by doing my own projects.
ORIS — When you speak about that time, and I’m absolutely
guessing here, how much does counter-culture, pop music,
alternative music, how much does this kind of stuff influence
your work or you? ¶ ODILE DECQ — I think that everything
influences architecture. Everything around us influences
architecture, that means not only art, but music, dance, theatre,
opera, food, society, physics, biological research, everything!
ORIS — The first work by you that I saw was in Domus
magazine, the motorway bridge in Nanterre. At that time, I
was just finishing my architectural studies. I was into a very
oris, number 77, year 2012
Odile Decq, Intervju
Odile Decq, Interview
MACRO, Muzej
suvremene umjetnosti,
Rim, Italija, 2010.
tlocrt
MACRO, Museum of
Contemporary Art, Rome,
Italy, 2010
plan
(RH)
22
oris, broj 77, godina 2012 23
tako provela, vrlo inspirativno razdoblje. London je u to
vrijeme bio u ekonomskoj depresiji, ali mu je energija bila
apsolutno nevjerojatna.
ORIS — Otad se štošta promijenilo. Nešto na bolje, nešto na
gore, ali čini se da je završila takva borba kreativnošću protiv
tačerizma i krize tog vremena. Kako danas gledate na tu
vrstu umjetničkog pokreta otpora? Koje je mjesto arhitekta
u današnjem društvu? ¶ ODILE DECQ — Kao prvo, imamo
sve više arhitekata koji su poznatiji zbog ‘sustava zvijezda’,
ali istovremeno, mislim da su izgubili svoju pravu ulogu u
društvenom smislu. Ali, kako sam i ranije rekla, za­hvaljujući
specific kind of gothic music and so on. When I saw your
picture, I was totally amazed because of the association with
Siouxsie and the Banshees, the bass player from the Sisters
of Mercy and so on. ¶ ODILE DECQ — Those were two of my
favourite bands at the time and I went a lot of times to London
to see them, because Sisters of Mercy were never coming to
France. The singer said he had a French girlfriend he hated,
so France was forbidden, but he plays France now. Last year,
I bought a ticket but I couldn’t go, because I had a meeting. I
have to see them. The singer’s presence is really impressive.
And Siouxsie was also something else.
novoj generaciji mladih arhitekata to se pitanje vraća. Zbog
vremena između početka i kraja projekta, moramo biti u
stanju svoje ideje o jednom projektu zadržavati i deset godina,
bez obzira na vrijeme, novinare, medije, ekonomiju, krize i
tako dalje. Sve je to vrlo složeno. Istovremeno, način na koji
integriramo ili izvodimo neke stvari, što sve uključujemo u
projekt, daje nam mogućnost da gledamo dalje, da nas zanima
što će se dogoditi u budućnosti jer moramo biti u stanju
napraviti zgradu za sljedećih deset godina, ne za danas, već
za sutra. Zbog toga mislim da arhitekti mogu savjetovati
političare ili ljude koji trebaju informacije ili ljude, kako bi
stvarali ideje za budućnost. Ovo je jedino zanimanje koje tako
funkcionira. Na primjer, dizajner obično skicu da tvrtki koja
onda obavi sve ostalo. Uvijek je brzo. Reklamiranje je brzo,
kinematografija isto tako. Ali, mi moramo zadržavati misli.
Zato je s nama teško živjeti (smije se). Uvijek o svemu imamo
ideje ili mišljenja.
ORIS — Zanimljiv je proces od ideje do realizacije. ¶ ODILE
DECQ — Da, nije linearan. Nije diskurzivan, ali morate
naći put i nikad nije ravan. Zato ga uvijek uspoređujem s
jedrenjem. Kad jedrite, imate točku do koje trebate stići, ali u
međuvremenu idete ovim ili onim putem, zbog vjetra, struja
i svega ostalog. Ako jedrite, znate da ćete istovremeno morati
navigati i pregovarati, raditi kompromise, ne gubeći cilj iz vida.
To je za mene i arhitektura.
ORIS — Zanimaju nas i projekti koje nismo vidjeli u knjigama
i časopisima. Što pripremate? ¶ ODILE DECQ — Sljedeći je
projekt FRAC u Rennesu i otvara se za dva mjeseca. I to je
muzej suvremene umjetnosti, manji od MACRO-a, različit, ali
ne jako. Prepoznaju se neke ideje iz MACRO-a, ali zbog uvjeta
projekta, koji je manji i gušći, istovremeno je i drukčiji. Čudno
je. Iznenadila sam se jer ne idem svaki tjedan na gradilište
zbog nedostatka vremena, pa kad su je otkrili, nismo prije
mnogo vidjeli jer je prostor u sredini bio ispunjen skelama.
No, lani kad su počeli micati skele iz sredine, iznenadila sam
se i prostor me se dojmio. Svaki put kad onamo odem, divim
se onome što su napravili. Stvarno je snažno. Ministar kulture
je muzej posjetio u ožujku, pa se i on iznenadio. Izvana se vidi
samo taj crni kvadar. Čudna je i materijalnost tog kvadra. Ima
stakla, ali je staklo u slojevima od crnog do gotovo prozirnog,
a gore je čelik, no čelik je crn, ali istovremeno i reflektivan.
Mijenja boju prema nebu, a otraga imamo crni beton. To znači
da se tri različita materijala igraju s tamom, ali su različiti jer su
reflektivni, istovremeno vrlo gusti pa apsorbiraju i odražavaju
sve u isto vrijeme. Vrlo zanimljiv monolit. Iznutra je to prostor
koji se kreće od tla do visine od 30 metara. Ne mogu to zapravo
dobro objasniti, zaista je složeno.
oris, broj 77, godina 2012 oris, number 77, year 2012
Odile Decq, Intervju
Most preko autoceste
i kontrolni centar,
Nanterre, Francuska,
1996.
Motorway bridge and
control center, Nanterre,
France, 1996
(GF)
24
ORIS — Are you still into that kind of music? ¶ ODILE DECQ — Yes, I still have them on my phone. I have all the CDs of all
the gothic music from that period. In the 1980s, there was a
place in London called Great Gear Market, on the King’s Road,
where you had everything, cafés, clothes, vinyl, books, posters,
everything. It was really the place to go at this time. We were
going to London every week or every two weeks to listen to
music, because we had friends in those bands. At the same
time, we were going to London’s docks. When we’d come for
a weekend in London, we would go and see some concert,
but on Sunday we would visit and look at the buildings and
construction at the docks, and that’s how we understood
how to do buildings in steel construction. We were looking
at these details and all the transformation of the docks. We
were also going to contemporary art museums. It was a super
combination for the weekend. I did that for ten years. It was
a really inspiring period. It was a time when London was in
economic depression, but the energy inside was absolutely
incredible.
ORIS — Things have definitely changed from that time.
Some for better some for worse, but it seems that this kind
of fighting with creativity against Thatcherism and the crises
of that time has gone. How do you look on this kind of artistic
resistance today? What is the position of the architect now
in society? ¶ ODILE DECQ — First of all, we have more and
more architects and because of the star system architects are
more known, but at the same time, I think in a way they’ve
lost their real role in social terms. But as I said before, all
thanks to this new generation of young architects that issue
is coming back. Because of the length of time between the
beginning and the end of a project, we have to be able to keep
our ideas for ten years on one project, whatever is coming
in terms of influence of time, journalists, media, economy,
crises and so on. It’s very complex. At the same time, the way
we integrate, or do certain things with, everything we have
to integrate into one project, gives us a sort of possibility
to look a bit further, to be curious about what will happen
in the future, because our buildings are so long that we
have to be able to provide a building for tomorrow in ten
years, not for today, but for tomorrow. Thanks to that, I
think that architects are able to be advisors or consultants to
politicians or people who need information or need people
to make ideas for the future. This is the only profession that
works like that. For example, a designer usually gives just a
sketch to the company, and the company does everything.
It is always quick. Advertising is very quick, cinema is very
quick. But, we have to keep our minds. It’s why we are very
Odile Decq, Interview
25
ORIS — Zanimljivo je i da su crvena i crna boja nekako česta
tema Vaših radova. ¶ ODILE DECQ — OK, nosim crno i to
već duže vrijeme, ali istovremeno nisam htjela tjerati ljude
da imaju isto mišljenje kao ja. Sjećam se prvih projekata u
osamdesetima i čak devedesetima kad bismo razgovarali o
bojama i materijalima nekog projekta, klijenti su me uvijek
pitali hoću li unutra staviti crnu boju, a ja bih rekla: ‘Ne, crna
nije obavezna.’ Od MACRO-a, kad sam se usudila koristiti
crnu, mislim da je sad mogu primjenjivati i češće. Otkrila
sam da je fascinantno igrati se crnom bojom u arhitekturi, ali
tek nedavno. Crvenu sam uvijek koristila kod rendera, kako
bih vidjela kontrast sa svjetlom. Crvenu sam iskoristila na
jednoj zgradi 1991. godine kad smo trebali obojiti zid na kra­ju
zgra­de i naglasiti rez. Nekoliko smo dana o tome razgovarali
s ličilačkom tvrtkom i nakon toga smiješali vlastitu nijansu
crvene. Otad je koristim jer je moja, ali na početku je to bilo
samo na renderima, no kako su ispadali dojmljivi, odlučili
smo je koristiti i na građevinama. Bio je to proces, ne ideja,
imati crnu zgradu. Polako se uvuklo, korak po korak. Sad
razmišljam o tome što bih mogla nakon toga jer ne mogu
dovijeka zgrade bojiti u crno i crveno.
ORIS — No, to je dobro, neka vrsta potpisa. ¶ ODILE
DECQ — Znam taj svoj problem s crnom jer otkad znam da
nosim crnu odjeću, za mene je sve crno. Ne kupujem ništa
što nije crno. Teška je to droga. Čak i kad kupujem obične
stvari, ne kupujem ako nije crno. Kad sam počela koristiti
crnu boju na građevinama, to je zaista bilo teško jer je tama
difficult to live with (laughs). We always have an idea or
opinion about something.
ORIS — The process from the idea to realization is interesting.
¶ ODILE DECQ — Yes, it’s not linear. It’s not discursive, but
you have to find a way, and it’s never straightforward. It’s
why I always compare it to sailing, because when you sail,
you have a point you have to go to, but in the meantime,
you have to go this way and that way, because of the wind,
the currents and everything. If you sail, you know that you
will have to navigate and negotiate at the same time, to
compromise, but without losing the point. It’s the same as
architecture, to me.
ORIS — I’m a little bit curious about your projects which
we haven’t seen in books or magazines. What do you have
in preparation? ¶ ODILE DECQ — The next one, FRAC in
Rennes, will open in two months. It is again a museum of
contemporary art, smaller than MACRO, different, but not
so different. You can recognize some ideas from MACRO, but
because of the condition of this project, which is smaller and
denser, it’s really different at the same time. It is strange, I was
really surprised, because I don’t go to the site every week since
I don’t have that much time, so when they started to uncover
it, because the space in the middle was so full of scaffolding
we didn’t see it a lot, but last year, when they started to take
off this scaffolding in the middle, I was really surprised and
impressed by the space. Every time I go there, I am impressed
by what we have done. It’s really strong. We had the Minister
tako intenzivna, pa je crna boja vrlo komplicirana. Za mene
crno integrira sve boje u sebe. Stephen Hawking je rekao da
je kraj crne rupe crven. I tako sam sad zarobljena u vlastitom
sustavu. Zadnjih nekoliko tjedana razmišljam o tome kako
pobjeći od toga.
ORIS — U operi ste upotrijebili bijelu i crvenu boju. ¶ ODILE
DECQ — Ali je pod crn. Nova je zgrada apsolutno transpa­
rentna, ali su podovi unutra crni s nekoliko crvenih objekata.
U stupici sam. Teško je o tome razgovarati. Mislim o tome
dok putujem, recimo da upotrijebim plavu boju, ali je plava
vrlo teška zbog mjesečine. Ako je stavite vani, mjesečina je
mijenja. Crvena je mnogo lakša. Ne znam, to je još jedna
avantura koja me čeka.
ORIS — Netko je u šali rekao da crno nije boja, već pogled
na svijet. Sviđa mi se Vaš pozitivni ‘mračni’ pogled na stvari.
Na taj način doživljavam i Vaš projekt ‘Mrzim Božić’ koji
posebno volim zbog njegove oštroumnosti. Podsjeća me
malo na Tima Burtona i njegov poetski crni humor. ¶ ODILE
DECQ — U Francuskoj postoji dobrotvorna organizacija koja
za Božić zamoli umjetnike, dizajnere i arhitekte da izrade
božićna drvca koja će prodavati. Pristala sam napraviti
jedno. Dakle, što je drvce? To je trokut i isprva sam rekla
da ga ne želim raditi jer mrzim Božić. Igrali smo pikado i
onda sam odlučila iskoristiti ga za božićno drvce, tako da je
svaka strelica nosila naziv smrtnog grijeha. Sve su različitih
boja, sedam strelica u sedam boja, svaka za jedan od sedam
grijeha.
of Culture visit the site in March, and he was really surprised.
From the outside, you just see this black parallelepiped. The
materiality of a parallelepiped is particular. We have glass, but
the glass goes from black to nearly transparent by layers, and
above we have steel, but the steel is black and reflective at
the same time. It changes colour all the time thanks to the
sky, and at the back we have black concrete. That means that
we have three different materials playing with this darkness,
but at the same time they are really different, because they
are reflective, but at the same time very dense, absorbing and
reflecting everything at the same time. It’s a very interesting
monolith. Inside, it is really a space which moves from the
ground to the top 30 metres high. I can’t really describe it,
it’s really complex.
ORIS — It’s interesting that red and black are somehow a
recurring theme in your work. ¶ ODILE DECQ — Ok, I’m
wearing black and have been wearing black for a long time,
but at the same time, I didn’t want to force people to have
the same opinion as me. I remember my first projects in
the 1980s and even the 1990s when we were discussing
the colours or materials of the project on site, my clients
were always asking whether I would put some black inside,
and I would say no, you are not forced to have black. Since
MACRO, where I dared to use black, I think I can finally push
black. I discovered that it is fantastic to play with black in
architecture, but this is quite recent. Red has always been in
my rendered image, to see the contrast with the light. This
I Hate Christmas, Pariz,
Francuska, 2010.,
Galerie Polaris
I Hate Christmas, Paris,
France, 2010, Galerie
Polaris
(ODBC)
26
oris, broj 77, godina 2012 oris, number 77, year 2012
Odile Decq, Intervju
Odile Decq, Interview
27
(ODBC)
Anisotropy, Los Angeles, SAD, 2011.
28
oris, broj 77, godina 2012 Anisotropy, Los Angeles, USA, 2011
red was used in a building in 1995 when we had to paint a
wall at the end of the building and we wanted to express the
cut, because it was a parallelepiped and we wanted to express
the cut of the building by a red surface. We discussed this with
a painting company for some days, and after that we made our
own red. Since then I’ve been using that red, because it is my
red, but in the beginning, it was only in the renderings, and
because the renderings became so strong, we said ok, we can
use it now inside the buildings. It was really a process; it was
not the idea of having a black building. It came slowly inside,
step by step. Now, I’m thinking about what I can do after that,
because I can’t go on forever building black and red.
ORIS — But it’s good, it’s some kind of signature. ¶ ODILE
DECQ — I know my problem with black, because as soon as I
knew I was wearing black, everything for me is black. I cannot
buy anything which is not black. It’s a hard drug. Even if I go
into a shop for a simple object, I can’t buy it if it’s not black.
As soon as I started to do black in buildings, it became really
difficult to go back, because darkness is so intense, so it’s
really complicated to come back. For me, it is black which
integrates all the colours inside. Stephen Hawking said that
the end of a black hole is red. And so, now I’m trapped in my
own system. For the past few weeks, I’ve been thinking about
how to escape it.
ORIS — You’ve made the opera in white and red. ¶ ODILE
DECQ — But the floor is black. The new building is absolutely
transparent, but inside the floors will be black and there will
be some red objects inside. I’m trapped. It’s hard to discuss
that. I think a lot when I travel, so I was thinking that maybe
I can use blue, but how can you use blue, because blue is
such a difficult colour to use due to the moonlight. If you
place it outside, it is transformed by the moonlight. Red is
much easier. I don’t know, this is another adventure that I
need to go on.
ORIS — Someone said, jokingly, that ‘black is not a colour but
a way of looking at the world’. I very much like your positive
‘dark’ view on things. I see your project ‘I Hate Christmas’ in
that way, which I really adore because of its cleverness. It
reminds me a little of Tim Barton and his poetic black humour.
¶ ODILE DECQ — In France, there is a charity that asks artists,
designers and architects to make a Christmas tree so they
can sell it. I agreed to make one. So what is a tree? It’s a
triangle and I said that I didn’t want to do it because I hate
Christmas. We were playing darts, and I decided to make it
into a Christmas tree, with every dart having the name of a
cardinal sin. They are all of different colour, seven arrows in
seven colours, each for one of the seven sins.
oris, number 77, year 2012
Odile Decq, Interview
29