The All

SPECIAL ISSUE ON THE
PLUS:
JUSTICE
SOCIETY,
ALL-STAR
SQUADRON,
& INFINITY,
INC.
PLUS:
No. 44
January
2005
FEATURING THIS
ALL-STAR CAST:
ORDWAY
KUBERT • HASEN
ANDERSON
TOTH • NAYDEL
ADLER • BUCKLER
MACHLAN
THOMAS
PLUS:
$$
5.95
In the
the USA
USA
In
Art ©2005 DC Comics; Justice Society, All-Star Squadron
& Infinity, Inc. TM & ©2005 DC Comics.
INFANTINO
SEKOWSKY
McFARLANE
GRANDENETTI
MESKIN • SWAN
GONZALES • ANDRU
PEDDY • HECK
REINMAN • COWAN
GIORDANO
BERG • AMASH
GILBERT • KANE
BORING • THORNE
FOX • NOVICK
ROBINSON • OKSNER
BOLTINOFF
SPRANGER
SIMON & KIRBY
McCOY • BRUNNER
PALAIS • PLATT
BURESCH • BLUMMER
FURNESS • LAZARE
SCHELLY
HAMERLINCK
SWAYZE • DUCA
SKEATES
KURTZMAN • WOOD
& MORE!!
Vol. 3, No. 44 / January 2005
Editor
Roy Thomas
Associate Editors
Bill Schelly
Jim Amash
™
Special Issue On The JSA,
ALL-STAR SQUADRON,
& INFINITY, INC.
Design & Layout
Christopher Day
Consulting Editor
John Morrow
FCA Editor
P.C. Hamerlinck
Comic Crypt Editor
Michael T. Gilbert
Editors Emeritus
Jerry Bails (founder)
Ronn Foss, Biljo White,
Mike Friedrich
Production Assistant
Eric Nolen-Weathington
Cover Artist
Jerry Ordway
Cover Colorist
Tom Ziuko
And Special Thanks to:
Arthur Adler
Heidi Amash
Murphy & Helen
Anderson
Bob Bailey
Mike W. Barr
John Benson
Bill Black
Dominic Bongo
Jerry K. Boyd
Mark Cannon
Rich Buckler
Mike Burkey
Bob Cherry
Shaun Clancy
Gerry Conway
Dale Crain
Fred DeBoom
Craig Delich
Al Dellinges
Mrs. Pat Donath
Mrs. Al Duca
Michael Dunne
Mark Evanier
Jennie-Lynn Falk
Shane Foley
Ed Furness
Janet Gilbert
Ron Goulart
David Hajdu
George Hagenauer
Jennifer T.
Hamerlinck
R.C. Harvey
Irwin Hasen
Dave Herring
Steve Herring
Tom Horvitz
Al Jaffee
Joe Kubert
Henry J. Kujawa
Gerald Lazare
Mike & Eve
Machlan
Dan Makara
Todd McFarlane
Brian K. Morris
Will Murray
Jerry Ordway
& Family
Fred Patten
Joe Petrilak
Robert Pincombe
Charlie Roberts
Ethan Roberts
Stephan Rowe
Greg Sadowski
Mark Shainblum
Rick Shurgin
Joe Simon
Steve Skeates
Robin Snyder
Marc Svensson
Marc Swayze
Joel Thingvall
Dann Thomas
Alex Toth
Dr. Michael J.
Vassallo
Delmo Walters, Jr.
Tom Watkins
Len Wein
John Wilcox
Tom Wimbish
This issue is dedicated to the memories of
Joe Buresch, Rudy Palais,
& Kin Platt
Contents
Writer/Editorial: ...With Liberty And Justice Society For All . . . . . . . . 3
“A Chance To Spread My Wings” . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
Artist/legend Joe Kubert speaks with Jim Amash about drawing “Hawkman” in the 1940s.
“Cartoonists Are So Unaware Of Who They Are!” . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11
Irwin Hasen on illustrating “Green Lantern,” “JSA,” et al., in the Golden Age.
(Excerpts From A) Postcard from the Edge–– Of California, That Is! . . 20
Alex Toth tells us why he has nothing to say about the JSA.
A “Will” Of The Wisp! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21
Still more art from that long-lost mid-1940s “Justice Society” story!
An “Atom” Age Artisan . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 22
Arthur Adler on his short, sweet comics-writing career in the late 1940s.
Of The Spectre And Lesser Lights . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 26
A brief conversation with Golden/Silver Age All-Star Murphy Anderson.
[Contents continued on next page.]
Above: Along with this issue’s cover, Jerry Ordway was kind enough to send Ye Ed various
other pieces of art he drew for DC during the 1980s, including this display drawing done for
DC’s marketing department to promote the landmark series Crisis on Infinite Earths. The illo
spotlights the Earth-Two Superman and Firebrand (of the All-Star Squadron), Obsidian and
Fury (of Infinity, Inc.), and Blue Beetle (of the 1980s Justice League International). What can
we say but—“Gorgeous!” [©2005 DC Comics.]
Alter EgoTM is published monthly by TwoMorrows, 10407 Bedfordtown Drive, Raleigh, NC 27614, USA. Phone: (919) 449-0344.
Roy Thomas, Editor. John Morrow, Publisher. Alter Ego Editorial Offices: 32 Bluebird Trail, St. Matthews, SC 29135, USA.
Fax: (803) 826-6501; e-mail: roydann@ntinet.com. Send subscription funds to TwoMorrows, NOT to the editorial offices. Single issues:
$8 ($10 Canada, $11.00 elsewhere). Twelve-issue subscriptions: $60 US, $120 Canada, $132 elsewhere. All characters are © their
respective companies. All material © their creators unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter © Roy Thomas. Alter Ego is a TM of
Roy & Dann Thomas. FCA is a TM of P.C. Hamerlinck. Printed in Canada.
FIRST PRINTING.
Title
contents
2
[cont’d]
“I Jumped At The Opportunity!”. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 35
Rich Buckler talks to collaborator Roy Thomas about the All-Star Squadron.
“You Really Put Me Through My Paces!” . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 43
Jerry Ordway on working with Mike Machlan & Roy Thomas on All-Star Squadron.
From The Centurions To Infinity, Inc. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 52
Roy Thomas’ original 1982 proposal for the feature that became Infinity, Inc.
Tributes to Joe Buresch, Kin Platt, & Rudy Palais. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 59
Comic Crypt: “I Like Ike!” Part Two . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 65
Michael T. Gilbert shows comic book artists saluting President Eisenhower in 1954.
Tales Calculated To Drive You…Odd! Part Two . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 71
Bill Schelly completes his interview with 1960s parodists Steve & Dave Herring.
re: [comments, correspondence, & corrections] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 77
FCA (Fawcett Collector of America) #103. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 81
P.C. Hamerlinck presents Al Duca, Steve Skeates, Marc Swayze—& Louis LeBone!
About Our Cover: In 1983 Jerry Ordway was in the process of seguing from penciling All-Star
Squadron to inking (or so he intended) the upcoming title Infinity, Inc. DC asked him to draw
a two-page spread for its summer publication The DC Sampler, which was to be distributed free
as a promotion piece—so Jerry produced this powerful panorama symbolizing events in All-Star
Squadron #26 and that mag’s second Annual, which would guest-star the new heroes of Infinity,
Inc. Ever since, two or three years ago, Jerry sent Alter Ego’s editor (and his 1983 collaborator)
Roy Thomas a photocopy of that illustration, it was a foregone conclusion that it would become
a wraparound cover of A/E! And now it has! [©2005 DC Comics.]
™
COMING IN FEBRUARY
#
45
THE SANDMAN COMETH!
Special Issue on Golden Age Artists CREIG FLESSEL & BERT CHRISTMAN
—and the Earliest Glory Days of DC Comics!
C Comics
© 2005 D
an TM &
sel; Sandm
Creig Fles
Art ©2005
• Sensational brand-new full-color Sandman cover by CREIG FLESSEL!
• The Two Greatest Artists of the Gas-Mask SANDMAN! Fascinating interview with comics
pioneer CREIG FLESSEL, conducted by JIM AMASH—plus an in-depth study
of BERT CHRISTMAN, the original artist (and probable creator) of The Sandman,
by DAVE ARMSTRONG—with tons of rare art and vintage photos!
• Scarce and never-before-seen artwork by JACK COLE, JOE SHUSTER, FRED
GUARDINEER, CHAD GROTHKOPF, BILL ELY, GILL FOX, OGDEN WHITNEY, et al.!
• Special Bonus! Author MICHAEL CHABON talks with ROY THOMAS about his Golden
Age research for his Pulitzer Prize-winning novel The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and
Clay, with art by GIL KANE, WILL EISNER, JACK KIRBY, DICK AYERS, & MART NODELL!
• Tributes to Golden Age artists IRV NOVICK & HARRY LAMPERT!
• Plus—FCA with MARC SWAYZE, C.C. BECK, & OTTO BINDER’s lost “Jon Jarl” story—
MICHAEL T. GILBERT on BERNIE WRIGHTSON & other young pros at Warren, circa
1970—BILL SCHELLY on comic fandom—ALEX TOTH on anything he feels like talking
about—& MORE!!
Edited by ROY THOMAS
SUBSCRIBE NOW! Twelve Issues in the US: $60 Standard, $96 First Class (Canada: $120, Elsewhere: $132 Surface, $180 Airmail).
NOTE: IF YOU PREFER A SIX-ISSUE SUB, JUST CUT THE PRICE IN HALF!
TwoMorrows. Bringing New Life To Comics Fandom.
TwoMorrows • 10407 Bedfordtown Drive • Raleigh, NC 27614 USA • 919-449-0344 • FAX: 919-449-0327 • E-mail: twomorrow@aol.com • www.twomorrows.com
Title
writer/editorial
3
...With Liberty And Justice Society For All!
W
e’re starting the New Year off
with a few changes—which
somehow seems the right time for
them. And we’re not talking about
this issue’s dedication largely to a single theme,
that of the Golden Age Justice Society and its
later spin-offs, the All-Star Squadron and
Infinity, Inc., both conceptualized by Ye Editor
in the 1980s.
year—that sometimes the “flip” covers confused
browsers, who couldn’t recall if they’d already
purchased an issue earlier: “Hmmm… the Dave
Stevens Sheena cover on #21 looks familiar… but
not the Irwin Hasen JSA re-creation on the other
side. Do I have this issue at home, or not?”
So, for the foreseeable future, there’ll be just
one cover… and we’ll have to go for the strongest
image we can find that fits that month’s contents.
First off, although Alter Ego did have one
previous wraparound cover (on Vol. 3, #5), you
may have noticed that this issue is different.
Namely, you don’t have to turn it upside down
to read half of it. For, as of this month, we are,
with some reluctance, abandoning the concept
of “flip” covers and sections, probably for
good. Starting with #45, there’ll be just one A/E
cover to ogle… a situation which has both its
up side and its down side.
The other minor change starting with this issue
is that it’s eight pages thinner than editions since
#15. Sure, we’d like to slide by without
mentioning this—but we figure A/E’s readers can
count. We also figure that most of them will
consider 100 pages (counting covers) to be an
adequate bargain at $5.95—or $1 less, if they have
a subscription. Actually, 100 pages was the page
count for issues #2-14, and the 8-page increase was
meant to be temporary. So much material has
come streaming in from all sides, however, that I
clung to the slightly greater length for three years,
and John indulged me. But the time has finally
come when we either had to increase the cover
price, or drop a measly half-signature, and the
latter seemed the preferable route. We hope you
agree, and will continue to feel—as many of you
have said you do—that Alter Ego is one of the
best and most unique comics-related magazines in
the market.
The “flip” nature of A/E was a holdover
from the late ’90s, when A/E itself was merely a
16- to 40-page addendum to Jon B. Cooke’s
original Comic Book Artist. It was Jon who
suggested the “flip” bit, printing A/E upside
Jerry Ordway’s Newsboy Legion/Guardian
down to the main body of CBA. With a bit of
pin-up from All-Star Squadron Annual #1 (1982).
arm-twisting, I persuaded amiable publisher
Repro’d from a photocopy of the original art,
John Morrow to continue the “flip” concept,
courtesy of J.O. [©2004 DC Comics.]
originally because I intended to devote half of
each issue of A/E to the Golden Age, and half
to the Silver. When that unwieldy plan fell by the wayside after an issue or
two of this third volume, I kept the two-cover look because it freed me to
Other than that, we can only repeat what we’ve mentioned once or
use at least one cover each month which didn’t have to be overtly
twice before: if you want to make certain that A/E continues its monthly
“commercial.” We figured, for instance, that Dave Cockrum’s X-Men illo
schedule, honoring the Golden and Silver and even Bronze Age creators of
would be more likely to make retailers order copies of A/E #24 than the
heroic comics, there are two things you can do to help:
equally stand-out Mort Meskin drawing of Vigilante on that issue’s flip
side. This was in no way an aesthetic judgment—for every reader who
(1) Buy every issue—not just one that emphasizes DC, or Marvel, or
decried the double-cover thing , there was another one who loved it—but
some favored artist or writer or subject. For A/E to appear monthly, we
that was John’s and my own imperfect response to what we deem the
need to have a certain base sale each month, not just when some relatively
marketplace to be.
“hot” topic or creator is covered. Besides, I’ll be bluntly honest about it—
if a comics fan can’t find $6 worth of value in each and every A/E, I don’t
But it’s just proven too time-consuming and, in the end, expensive to
think he or she has much real interest in the history of the field. What’s
feature two covers every month. It’s not that sales of Alter Ego are
the use of only reading about creators and creations you already know
declining—but they’ve stayed relatively flat since the aftermath of 9-11-01,
you like?
and the economic realities finally caught up with us. Besides, John has this
theory—and who am I to say he’s wrong, since he and Eric Nolen(2) Please tell other folks about Alter Ego. It’s kinda depressing each
Weathington hawk back issues of A/E at numerous comicons every
month to find out that some dyed-in-the-wool fan of the Golden and
Silver Ages hasn’t even been aware of Alter Ego’s first 40-plus issues.
One comics convention organizer only saw the mag for the first time as
Monthly! The Original First-Person History–
this issue was in preparation—and instantly bought an ad. It goes without
saying that selling an extra ad or two helps assure that A/E will either be
published by Robin Snyder
in your mailbox, or on the racks or under the counter at your friendly
neighborhood comics shop, each and every month.
Okay, end of hard-sell. Don’t worry—Alter Ego is definitely not on its
last legs—far from it! In fact, it would take only a relatively few additional
copies sold each month to make certain that it continues to come your
way for years to come. We don’t want in any way to denigrate those of
you who support it by buying most issues, or even just the occasional
one—but if you can see your way clear to do a bit more, we’ll all benefit!
Write to: Robin Snyder, 3745 Canterbury Lane #81,
Bellingham, WA 98225-1186
Bestest,
The All-Stars: From The ’40s To The ’80s
part one
“A Chance To Spread My Wings”
Artist & Legend JOE KUBERT Talks About Drawing
“Hawkman” In The 1940s
Interview Conducted by Jim Amash
Transcribed by Tom Wimbish
I
NTERVIEWER’S INTRO: While “Hawkman” wasn’t the first feature Joe Kubert drew
in the Golden Age of Comics, his stint on that character is his most memorable of the
time period. Hawkman was also a leading hero in “The Justice Society of America”
in All-Star Comics, and was popular enough to star on every second cover of Flash
Comics. Hawkman went through a few changes in the late 1940s, and here now is Joe to
tell us about those changes and what it was like to draw the Winged Wonder, under the
tutelage of two editorial legends—first Shelly Mayer, and later Julius Schwartz. —Jim.
JIM AMASH: When Shelly Mayer
gave you a “Wildcat” story while
“Hawkman” was your regular
assignment, would he tell you why?
JOE KUBERT: I was very young at the
time, and had complete trust in the fact
that Shelly felt that I could handle any
jobs that he gave me. I looked forward
to doing them. There was nothing
special about drawing “Wildcat” or any
of the other features. Even when I was
doing “Hawkman,” the character itself
was really meaningless to me,
Joe Kubert graciously autographing a comic at the All Time Classic New York Comic
Book Convention at White Plains, NY, in 2000—flanked by “Hawkman” splashes he’d
done for Flash Comics more than a half century earlier! At left is his first, from Flash
#62 (Feb. 1945)—above, the one for the final issue (#104, Feb. 1949). Of course, even
earlier in 1944, he’d drawn the “Dr. Fate” chapter in All-Star Comics #21, and his
very first “Hawkman” story in The Big All-American Comic Book. The former was
reprinted in All Star Comics Archives, Vol. 5, the latter in the just-published DC
Comics Rarities Archives, Vol. 1. Thanks to Joe Petrilak for the photo—and to Kubertfan Al Dellinges for the two Flash Comics pages. Incidentally, Al pointed out years
ago that an under-20 and probably nervous Joe Kubert left a letter out of the hero’s
partly-obscured logo! [Hawkman art ©2005 DC Comics.]
except that it gave me an opportunity to draw comic books and an
occasional cover.
Whenever I brought in a job (which I did on an erratic schedule,
because I was going to school at the time and was terrible with
deadlines), Shelly would always have another job waiting for me, even
though I didn’t quite meet the deadlines that he set.
JA: What do you think Shelly saw in you?
KUBERT: Probably the same thing he saw in guys like Carmine
Infantino and Alex Toth: we were young kids, and Shelly was an
incredibly sensitive person who recognized in others those things that
he felt himself. He recognized in me and the other guys a love for what
we wanted to do. We expressed that love with the effort that we put
into the work that we did. Sure, we were doing lousy, terrible stuff, but
he saw potential in the fact that we put every effort into it. Since he felt
the same way about the work, he encouraged us. That was something
for which we were all grateful.
JA: Irwin Hasen told me that Shelly would sometimes throw the
pages up in the air, and things like that.
“A Chance To Spread My Wings”
5
KUBERT: I was there once when that
happened. That was because Shelly and
Irwin were such good friends. Shelly was
a little bit of a nut, anyhow. He was a nice
guy, a wonderful guy, but he could do
some crazy things.
JA: Did he ever throw your pages up in
the air or stomp on them?
KUBERT: No, because I would have
thrown him right out the window. I wasn’t
the sort of person who’d appreciate that
kind of treatment, so Shelly never did that
sort of thing with me.
JA: Alex Toth told me Shelly would
always encourage him to write and letter his stories, as well. Did he
encourage you to do the same thing?
KUBERT: Definitely, and I lettered most of my stuff at the beginning. I
got lettering lessons from Sol Harrison, who was in the production
department at that time, and later became the president and publisher of
DC.
Shelly felt that it was important for a guy getting into the business to
know as much about it as he possibly could. He even encouraged us to
go down to the engravers (which was just across the street) to see what
they did with our work, so that we’d have a better sense of what would
happen before the stuff was published. There were incredible changes
between what we’d see on the originals and what we’d eventually see in
print. The kind of printing that was being used at the time involved
metal plates that had to be etched with acids. The colors were basic, and
the registration was so far off that it was ridiculous. It was important to
know what the work was going to look like when it was printed, and to
understand the problems and vicissitudes that the guys who worked on
our stuff went through, so that we would have a fighting chance to make
our work legible.
JA: People like Gardner Fox, John Broome, and Robert Kanigher
were writing your stories. Did you have a favorite writer?
KUBERT: No, it didn’t make any difference at all. I had no idea who the
hell the writer was.
I’d get the script in
typed form, and it
was years before I
actually met any of
the writers. We
would only meet if
we happened to
come up to the
office at the same
time. Other than
that, most of the
artists never even
met the writers.
The writing
All-American Comics editor Sheldon Mayer seems (thanks to our clever
juxtaposition) to be looking approvingly at the splash page of the
“Wildcat” story Joe drew for Sensation Comics #66 (June 1947). Repro’d
from a black-&-white Australian reprint comic, with thanks to Shane
Foley. The pic of Shelly M. is a detail from a 1942 photo printed in Wonder
Woman #2. [©2005 DC Comics.]
was the editor’s bailiwick, and what was given to the artist was the result
of the efforts between the editor and the writer. Shelly never really
encouraged us to write; we had enough trouble learning how to draw.
[laughs]
JA: When you did a story for him, you wouldn’t letter or ink until the
pencils were approved, right?
KUBERT: Right. First we’d do full pencils, and we’d show them to
Shelly. Shelly would then go through the script and pencils, and tell us
where he felt corrections should be made. Then we would letter and ink.
Shelly requested changes very infrequently, which was really great.
There were scheduling deadlines to be met, so instead of haunting us
with changes on stuff that was already done, Shelly was more likely to
tell us to watch out for those mistakes on the next jobs we would do.
From almost the beginning of Flash
Comics, Hawkman tended to be featured
on half its covers. Here’s Kubert’s third
cover—for #67 (Oct.-Nov. 1945), during
a period when the comic dropped to
bimonthly status for a year, and the AllAmerican group had apparently split off
from National/DC and adopted its own
similar logo. Thanks to Al Dellinges.
[©2005 DC Comics.]
What sticks out in my mind was his comment about
drawing kids: you don’t draw a kid with the same
expressions as an adult. A kid is a kid, and he looks like
a kid. The proportions are different, the looks are
different, and the expressions are different. He pushed
that across to me so that the characters I’d draw would
be as credible as possible.
JA: Did he encourage you to build reference and
swipe files, or to study certain artists?
6
Joe Kubert Talks About Drawing “Hawkman” In The 1940s
KUBERT: Not to study
certain artists, but to have
reference files, which were
critical. It’s still critical today;
every artist I know—
including me—uses a
reference file. Now, of
course, we resort to the
computer, which has everything on any kind of subject
at a moment’s notice. But
before that, we had to clip
out the stuff and categorize it,
so that when we needed a
particular subject—a car, an
animal, whatever it might
be—we could turn to our
reference file and use it.
JA: On the Hawkman
covers you did for Flash
Comics, was there a
separate conference when
you’d show cover roughs to
Shelly? How did that work?
JA: When you started to
work on “Hawkman,” how
familiar were you with the
character?
KUBERT: Not at all. I was
introduced to the character
when I went up to the AllAmerican offices at 225
Lafayette Street and they
asked me to draw him. I may
have been aware of the
character in a passing manner,
but it was never something
that stuck in my mind.
Shelly Moldoff was doing
the strip before I did, and he
had patterned his style after
Hal Foster or Alex
Raymond. I was not even
asked to follow his style;
Shelly Mayer just gave some
books to me and said, “Here,
draw it.”
JA: Don’t you think that
KUBERT: Usually he would
Hawkman visually
suggest a particular scene that
Joe almost certainly drew this splash for Flash Comics #67 months before he did its cover.
descended from the
took place in the story, and
How can we tell? As covered on the next page (and in The All-Star Companion, Vol. 1), the
sequence
in Alex Raymond’s
just tell me to draw
wings on Hawkman’s mask are the clue, Sherlock. They’re much bigger and wider-flaring
Flash Gordon Sunday strips
on the cover than on this splash, where they still more closely resemble the 1940-44
something to take-off on that.
in which Flash fights the
version by artist Sheldon “Shelly” Moldoff. Thanks to Al Dellinges. [©2005 DC Comics.]
Of course, I had to incorHawkmen of Mongo?
porate the title of the book
and any blurbs that might accompany it. I don’t remember any real
KUBERT: Well, it seems reasonable that Hawkman was a take-off from
conferences, though. Once Shelly approved the initial penciled idea, it
those characters, but I thought it was a complete departure from that. I
was up to me to finish it. I don’t recall him ever having me change or
vividly remember the Flash Gordon sequence. I loved that strip; I
alter any of the covers I brought in. I don’t think I submitted my own
remember getting the Big Little Books and poring over those things. But
cover ideas, but I don’t think that I went directly with what Shelly
I never related one to the other.
suggested, either. We would discuss it, but then the final decision would
unquestionably be Shelly’s. I think those were probably the first covers I
JA: When you went into Shelly’s office, did you just walk in?
ever did.
KUBERT: Well, I’m sure there was a receptionist outside, and I
JA: It sounds to me as if the covers were drawn after the stories were
remember that at All-American, the offices were separated by glass
done.
walls. They were not partitioned; they were enclosed offices. I would tell
the receptionist I was there, and if I remember correctly, I was usually
KUBERT: I don’t recall exactly, Jim, but I believe they were.
ushered right in; there was no waiting or anything. That was true of all
of us. It’s not as if there was such an onrush of people trying to get in
JA: That’s interesting, because a lot of companies did their covers
that
there was a waiting line.
before the stories.
KUBERT: That’s right. I remember times when Kanigher would jump
off from a cover idea and go write a story.
JA: Did you feel as if Shelly was showing his respect for you by letting
you do Hawkman covers for Flash Comics?
KUBERT: I’m not sure, but I doubt if that’s true. I don’t know why
Shelly gave me the covers. Maybe he was giving me a chance to spread
my wings a bit. Maybe it was because there was a deadline, and he
couldn’t get the guy who was supposed to do the cover. Chances are that
I did the covers because I was the regular feature artist.
I tried to make a special effort when I did them. I realized their
importance: they were on the outside of the magazine rather than the
inside, and when they were displayed in a store or exhibited anyplace,
that’s what you would see. I was impressed by that, and I tried my best
when I did those covers. I don’t really remember if I got a higher rate
for the cover art, but I don’t think I did.
During the years I was drawing “Hawkman,” I would drive into the
city, and I was able to park downstairs and leave one of my family sitting
in the car, because it didn’t take me that long to run up and down and
take care of everything.
JA: You were a young guy at the time. What did your parents think
about all this?
KUBERT: My parents were born in Europe, and the idea of anybody
being able to make a livelihood by drawing these little crazy pictures
was a little bit beyond them; they couldn’t believe it. I drew pictures all
the time as a kid—my father was a butcher, and I would draw on the
paper bags—and they couldn’t imagine that what I was doing could
eventually generate an income.
I have four sisters, and before any of us married, moved out of the
house, or took on our own personal responsibilities, all the money that
was being made went to the Treasurer: my mother. When anybody
needed any money, they would come to the Treasurer. It was interesting
“A Chance To Spread My Wings”
to the Treasurer that I was bringing in perhaps more than my father was
making as a butcher. They encouraged me to draw before that, too, even
though they never dreamed that I’d be able to make a living at it.
I don’t think they were really aware that I was succeeding, but they
were pleased that I was able to make a living and bring some money into
the house. In terms of my accomplishment as an artist, I think they were
always proud that I could draw.
JA: When did you start working in a studio instead of at home?
KUBERT: I lived at home until I joined the Army in 1950, but in the
’40s I had this studio up at Park Avenue. I know that sounds great, but it
was this little, old, skinny building among all the beautiful buildings. It
had a little elevator, and if you crowded two people into it, you
weren’t sure you were going to make it upstairs. [laughter]
Photographer Brad Smith rented the place, and we sublet a
room.
JA: Although you drew “Hawkman”
chapters and one “Doctor Fate” for
the Justice Society stories in AllStar, you never drew the whole
team, right?
KUBERT: Right, but it didn’t
make a particle of difference to me.
I was just interested in the
next story I might be
getting, and in trying to
do the best job I
could.
JA: Did DC supply
your paper?
KUBERT: Yes. That
was one of the big
benefits of working for DC:
not having to go out and
buy paper—which was
expensive at the
time—and getting the
quality of paper the
other guys were using,
which you can’t even
buy anymore.
JA: In those days, did you
try to get your original art back?
7
KUBERT: I think I patterned the wings after Shelly Moldoff’s, to begin
with. Nobody asked me to do the costume differently, and I changed
very little about it, although our drawing styles were different. Then,
little by little, I began to make the wings look more birdlike. I also
tinkered a little bit with the headgear.
JA: So it was a matter of artistic temperament rather than boredom?
KUBERT: Pretty much so. Later, Julie Schwartz suggested that we
change the mask and costume a little bit to create more interest in the
character. Up to that point, though, any changes that took place were at
my whim.
JA: The change you’re talking about is the one in the ’40s when you
got rid of the hawk mask and gave him a yellow pull-over mask
with a hawk emblem on it, right?
KUBERT: Yeah. There were several different changes.
JA: Although you weren’t involved in
the coloring of the stories that you did
for Shelly Mayer, did he encourage
you to think about color?
KUBERT: Absolutely. I had conversations with Sol Harrison, Eddie
Eisenberg, and possibly Jack Adler.
Here’s a progression of
They were doing color
Hawkman heads, to demonstrate
plates for comic books
how Joe slowly evolved the look. (Clockwise
and working on color
from above:) (a) Head by Sheldon Moldoff from
separations for Hal
Flash Comics #40 (April 1943)… (b) Kubert’s first
Hawkman story, Big All-American Comic Book (1944)… (c)
Foster’s Prince
another head from his Flash debut in #62 (Feb. ’45)… (d) the
Valiant at the same
helmet-wings are beginning to flare a bit by Flash #66 (Aug.time. They spent a
Sept. ’45)… (e) they reach their most dramatic form, in Ye
hell of a lot more time
Editor’s view, in Flash #73 (July ’46)… (f) they get maybe a wee
on Prince Valiant, and
bit too wild by #75 (Sept. ’46)… (g) in Flash #88 (Oct. ’47),
really loved what they
suddenly the head-wings are more subdued—and the mask is
were doing. Talking with
abruptly missing a bottom beak!… (h) the “beak” shape abruptly
those guys really gave
vanishes completely in the very next issue, #89 (Nov. ’47), though
insight about color. I
the #88 look will pop up again in an occasional story… and (i)
both the head-wings and hawk-like helmet are dropped in
sometimes wrote color
favor of a simple cowl with a hawk-sigil, as of Flash Comics
notes on the pages. I
#98 (Aug. ’48). This was probably a decision made by
don’t know how
new full-editor Julius Schwartz, who succeeded
much good they did;
Shelly Mayer when he resigned in 1947-48.
none of the artists who
Thanks to Al Dellinges for the Kubert
added color notes knew
samples. [©2005 DC Comics.]
whether they’d be
followed, or even looked at.
We hoped that somebody would pay
attention, though.
KUBERT: No, and I think that was true of
99 and 9/10 % of the people working back
then. The artwork was destroyed by most
publishers because they felt that it wasn’t
worth the space it would take up in a
warehouse. If an artist had wanted his work back, he
could have gotten it. However, most of us felt that the publishers paid us
for the work that we’d done, and that it now belonged to them. We were
perfectly satisfied with that.
JA: If I were 16 or 17 years old and drawing comics, I think if I’d
done something I really liked, I’d want examples of it to keep.
JA: Once the books were on the stands,
how closely did you examine your work
in print?
KUBERT: Sometimes I didn’t want to look at it
at all, because the color registration was so far off, and
sometimes the black plates turned out to be gray. It really hurt to look at
the printed results.
JA: Were you making mental notes about what printed well, what
reduced well, and what didn’t?
KUBERT: Well, you would if you felt that it was yours, but there was a
tacit understanding that when the guy paid you for the work, the work
was his. How could you ask him to give back something that he had just
bought from you? We didn’t even think of it.
KUBERT: Yeah, but to say that it wasn’t a thrill to see your stuff in
print would have been a bald lie. Every one of us looked forward to
seeing the stuff in print, knowing that it was actually being published
and going all over the United States. It was always a thrill that other
people were actually seeing the stuff.
JA: Let’s discuss how you drew Hawkman’s wings.
JA: Would you say that even though you were still learning the craft,
The All-Stars: From The ’40s To The ’80s
part two
11
“Cartoonists Are So
Unaware Of Who They Are!”
IRWIN HASEN On Drawing “Green Lantern,” “JSA,” Et Al., In The Golden Age
Interview Conducted by Jim Amash
Transcribed by Tom Wimbish
I
NTERVIEWER’S NOTE:
It’s been my good
fortune to spend time
with Irwin Hasen at comic
book conventions. This past
year, we sat next to each
other at Heroes Con in
Charlotte, NC, and while I
did most of the talking,
Irwin—as always—entertained me with stories
about people he had
known in comics. I realized
Irwin Hasen enjoying himself at the
I wanted to get some of
All Time Classic New York Comics
that information in print,
Convention in 2000—pages from his preWWII sting as a “Green Lantern” artist.
and happily, Irwin agreed
At right is his splash from All-American
to this interview, which
Comics #47 (Feb. 1943). Thanks to
was meant to complement
Joel
Thingvall for the photocopy of the
Roy Thomas’ interview
original art. [GL art ©2005 DC Comics.]
with him, which appeared
in the first issue of the current volume of Alter Ego. As many of you
know, Irwin’s the life of every convention he attends. And he places
good, affordable prices on the work he sells, too—so tell Irwin that
Alter Ego sent you the next time you see him. Thanks, Irwin, for a
fun and informative chat. —Jim.
JIM AMASH: You mentioned Bert Whitman to me at the Heroes
Convention this past June. What can you tell me about him?
IRWIN HASEN: Bert Whitman was a top editorial cartoonist at a
Detroit newspaper in the 1930s. He left the Midwest and came to New
York, where he became sort of an entrepreneur, working for the
publisher of The Green Hornet. I met him during that time. After that,
he did a comic strip called Debbie Dean for The New York Post. He’s
the one who arranged to have me do The Goldbergs. Jerry Robinson
was supposed to do it first, but there was an altercation over salary
between Jerry and the executive editor. Jerry just sort-of conked out and
Bert called me.
I had just gotten out of the Army, and it was a wonderful opportunity for me. I worked there in the newspaper office for one of the
happiest years of my life. Just like in the movies—The Front Page, and
all that. I worked there at a drawing board, and Stanley Kaufman wrote
the strip, though I never met him. He later became a music editor or
something like that. I met some wonderful people there like Victor
Riesel, the labor editor, who was blinded by gangsters.
Bert Whitman was a flamboyant guy. He was 6'4", very dapper, kindof a playboy type. He was entrepreneur-ish; he wasn’t really a cartoonist
as we know cartoonists. He has since died, by the way. I never saw
enough of his editorial stuff to comment on it. Debbie Dean just briefly
had its star.
Bert had been a polo player in Detroit. I visited him at his house in
Long Island, and I saw his polo mallet in the corner. I said, “Gee, Bert,
I’d love to have that for my apartment; I just moved in.” So he said,
“Yeah okay, you can have it; I don’t need it.” About five years later, he
was moving out to Stockton, California, to become an editorial
cartoonist, and Bert called me up and said, “Look, I’m moving out there.
Could you mail me that mallet?” So I had to go to the Daily News
syndicate, and have the mailroom guys wrap up his polo mallet and mail
it to him. That was ridiculous... genuinely stupid on his part... not nice.
I worked in his office, doing “Cat-Man” at the time [1940]. I was told
by Julie Schwartz that I was the first one to draw “Cat-Man.” I don’t
remember that, but if Julie said so, it had to be right.
JA: You started at the Chesler shop. What do you remember about
Harry Chesler?
12
Irwin Hasen On Drawing “Green Lantern,” “JSA,” Etc., In The Golden Age
Gleason Publications, and he started to make a lot of money. I can
remember when Charlie bought himself a Jaguar, a white one, and he
showed it to all of us. It was adorable. He opened up the trunk and
showed us the elegant toolbox that came with it. [laughs]
JA: Why did he have holes in his sweater?
HASEN: He was that kind of guy. He was probably broke. He was a
“huh-huh-huh” kind of a guy. You know, “huh-huh-huh.”
JA: What do you remember about Mort Meskin and Irv Novick?
Bert Whitman Strikes Twice!
(Above:) These final two panels from Whitman’s first Debbie
Dean, Career Girl newspaper daily—dated Jan. 11, 1942—
follow ones explaining that “Debbie Dean, heiress to a
fabulous fortune, tires of the life of a debutante,” so she
becomes a reporter. This art was reprinted in Coulton
Waugh’s seminal 1947 book on comic strips, The Comics.
(Right:) Oddly, though Irwin Hasen drew the very first
“Cat-Man” story in Holyoke’s Crash Comics #4, Whitman
drew the first cover featuring Cat-Man, on Crash #5
(Nov. 1940). [Debbie Dean art ©2005 The New York Post
Syndicate or its successors in interest; Crash art ©2005
the respecive copyright holders.]
Novick and his wife and I got to be very
friendly. He was a grade-A carpenter; he built his
house with his own hands. He was a great artist,
one of the best. He always smoked a pipe.
HASEN: He was a very interesting kind of a man. He
had offices like a schoolroom: behind each oldfashioned desk was a cartoonist in his 20s, and he
treated them as if they were students. He was the
headmaster, with a felt hat, a cigar in his mouth, and a vest. He’d walk
around the guys like they were children in his classroom. They were
doing the odds and ends of his workshop. He farmed out work. I did
single pages and sports cartoons for him—fillers. The others—Charlie
Biro, Mort Meskin, Irv Novick—they all sat like children in a classroom.
I worked as a staffer in his building from 1939 to 1940. He used to come
up to everybody at the end of the week and say, “How little do you
need to live on?” [laughter] And you looked at him as if he was joking,
but he wasn’t! But he was all right. He was a man of his time. He was
sort of a third-rate entrepreneur in a run-down building on East 23rd
Street, with a classroom.
Charlie Biro was a big, lovable guy in a
red sweater with holes at the elbows,
sitting there in the classroom. Then he
went on to work with Bob Wood at Lev
HASEN: Mort and I were very close. He was
very shy; he stuttered. He was a low-key, shy
man, very sensitive, and a wonderful artist. His
eyes would blink when he stuttered. You knew
he was going to be in bad shape later in his life.
You just had that feeling. We didn’t talk too
much, but Mort was a sweetheart. My whole life
has been about making people laugh. I don’t
know why, but that was my schtick in life, and I
always loved to make Mort laugh.
JA: How many people were working in the
Chesler shop?
HASEN: About twenty people. Winsor McCay’s
son Bob was also there. He was a quiet guy,
skinny and dark-skinned. Joe Kubert was Chesler’s mascot. He loved
Joe and Joe loved him. It was like a father-son relationship. But I don’t
think I met Joe until I was working for DC. We sat there quietly, getting
our work done. That’s all. There was no fooling around. I don’t
remember how much I was paid... maybe it was $8 a page. We were paid
in cash.
JA: Why did you leave Chesler?
HASEN: I went up to DC because
an uncle of mine knew Jack
Liebowitz, who was then an
accountant for Harry Donenfeld at
When editor Julius Schwartz reminded Irwin Hasen that he was the first artist to draw “Cat-Man,” he
was no doubt actually referring to “Wildcat,” which Irwin initiated later in DC/AA’s Sensation Comics #1
(Jan. 1942). The rare drawing at left was done (and even colored!) by Irwin in 1941 for fellow artist Jon
Chester (“Chet”) Kozlak, who drew “Wildcat” a couple of years later. A copy was sent to us by Hasen
agent (and friend) Dan Makara.
But Julie was right, albeit by accident! Irwin also drew the first “Cat-Man” story—for Crash Comics #4
(Sept. 1940). As per the splash and other panel above, the Holyoke Cat-Man was originally a cross
between Batman and Tarzan. This origin tale was reprinted in AC Comics’ Cat-Man Ashcan Edition
No. 2 (1996); check out AC’s ad elsewhere in this issue. [Wildcat art ©2005 Irwin Hasen;
Wildcat TM & ©2005 DC Comics; restored “Cat-Man” art ©2005 AC Comics.]
The All-Stars: From The ’40s to the ’80s
part six
Of The Spectre And Lesser Lights
A Brief Talk With Golden/Silver Age All-Star MURPHY ANDERSON
I
Conducted by Jim Amash
Transcribed by Tom Wimbish
NTERVIEWER’S INTRO: Murphy Anderson’s role in the
1960s revival of the Justice Society heroes was one of the
artistic highlights of his career. His life-long fascination
with those characters made him a natural choice for the JSArelated team-ups in Showcase and The Brave and the Bold, as
well as the “Spectre” series that soon followed. Murphy wasn’t
able to continue down this path, but his warm, elegant artwork
greatly enriched the JSA mythos, and we’re happy that Murphy
expressed his thoughts about that work for us. This interview is
©2005 Murphy Anderson & Jim Amash. —Jim.
JIM AMASH: Why were you picked for the JSA-related teamups with Dr. Fate and Hourman, and Starman and Black
Canary, in 1965?
MURPHY ANDERSON: I was doing a lot of work
for Julie Schwartz at the time, and he knew that I was
familiar with all of those old characters, maybe more so
than some of the artists who had been with him longer.
I knew all those characters from their earliest beginnings. As we talked about it, I brought in copies of my
old books with the characters in them. It worked out
that he needed me for the assignment, and the JSA
books were done concurrently. I think “The Spectre”
cropped up after the others were done.
Mr. and Mrs. Murphy Anderson at the Heroes
Con in Charlotte, NC (June 9, 2001)—a photo
taken by Bob Bailey on the same day as that
of Hasen and Schwartz on p. 16—plus a chaptersplash from the first “Spectre” revival story,
in Showcase #60 (Feb. 1966). If you wanna
see a great repro of that issue’s page 1 splash,
grab a copy of R.C. Harvey’s excellent and
art-filled 2003 volume The Life and Art of
Murphy Anderson—still on sale in this issue’s
TwoMorrows ad bloc. [Spectre art ©2005
DC Comics.]
JA: Since you grew
up with these
characters, these
stories must have
had special meaning
for you.
ANDERSON: Sure.
I liked “The
Spectre” quite well
when the character
was originally introduced. “Starman”
was just around; I never cared much for the feature. “Black Canary” was
even later; the character came out after World War II. I enjoyed “Dr.
Fate” and “Hourman” very much.
I particularly liked Hourman; he even inspired a little marionette I
made when I was in junior high school there at Greensboro Central. We
had a class project to make little marionettes. They were each about one
foot tall, and I designed a super-hero for one of mine. My mother sewed
a cape for him, and all that garbage. I made a hood for him out of
oilcloth, I believe. I forget what I called him, but it might have been one
of my own characters; I had a couple of ideas that I was playing with at
the time.
Murphy mentioned to Jim Amash that, circa 1940, he had drawn a one-page
super-hero parody called “Vita-Man,” so naturally Jim hounded the poor guy till
he sent us a copy of this never-published piece. It came with a note from Murphy:
“WARNING! View enclosed at your peril! Definitely not for the faint of heart!
…unless you have a very low brow!” Don’t be so hard on yourself, Murphy. It
would’ve fit nicely in any number of 1940s comics! (For Murphy’s “Time Traveler”
and other amateur strips he used as samples, see R.C. Harvey’s Anderson tome.)
[©2005 Murphy Anderson.]
Of The Spectre And Lesser Lights
27
(Above left:) This two-panel half-page of Hourman, Dr. Fate, and Solomon
Grundy by Murphy Anderson is repro’d from a photocopy of the original art to the
classic Showcase #55 (March-April 1965), courtesy of Mike W. Barr & Tom Horvitz.
One of those was “The Time Traveler,” and years later, I got into
big discussions about him with Julie. He was a science-fiction superhero type of character who could travel back and forth in time. That
was his power: he could leave a disaster and come back at a more
opportune time.
JA: You told me once that when they
brought back Black Canary, you
suggested she be an African-American
woman. Was that suggestion made for
this particular incarnation?
ANDERSON: Yes, a black singer. I
made the suggestion while they were
discussing her revival... before anything
was plotted, but Julie didn’t like the
idea. He didn’t think the time was right
for it. Julie was “Black Canary’s”
original editor [in the 1940s], and he
may have been attached to the character
just as she was. He also knew the people
in the front office wouldn’t go for it,
because they were worried about how
the idea would be received in the South.
JA: Were the covers done before the
stories?
ANDERSON: I think so. Julie picked
the villains, like The Huntress and
Sportsmaster for the Starman/Black
Canary team-up. He wanted to use
those old characters, so we came up
with a cover that would show their
powers off. Then for Doctor
Fate/Hourman, he wanted to use
Solomon Grundy. He also had Green Lantern in that story, and Wildcat
in one of the Starman/Black Canary stories. He wanted to feature as
many of those characters as he could in cameo appearances, or whatever
it took to drag them in. Julie wanted to revive these characters, not in
their older guises, but as updated characters.
JA: So you think it was Julie’s idea to do these team-ups, rather than
the front office?
(Above:) Some years back, Murphy sketched this Solomon Grundy head for Tom
Watkins, who has “worked on film and TV crews as a ‘property man’ or set
dresser for close to thirty years.” Thanks for sharing it, Tom!
(Below:) Splash page from the first “Starman and Black Canary” full-lengther, in
The Brave and the Bold #61 (Sept. 1965). [Published art ©2005 DC Comics; Grundy
head art ©2005 Murphy Anderson; Solomon Grundy TM & ©2005 DC Comics.]
ANDERSON: I had a little influence
on him, but we’d just toss ideas
around, accept them or reject them. I
always liked Hourman, though I never
had a great feeling for The Green
Lantern. The concept of Green
Lantern wasn’t science-fictiony; it was
kind of magic. The Dr. Fate concept
was a little different: it wasn’t magic, it
was mysticism. That was more interesting.
I’d always liked the Dr. Fate
character, and I liked Hourman. When
I was a kid, I had a little character I
was trying to do in a kind of Jack Cole
style, just as a filler page. I designed
him to be Vita-Man. He would size up
a crime that was happening, and then
he would take vitamin so-and-so...
BXQ4 or something. He would
swallow a pill and then take off after
the bad guys.
JA: When you were doing the teamups, did you research the old stories?
ANDERSON: Well, Julie and
Gardner Fox researched them, and
they may have used some of my old
books, I’m not sure. They had their own copies of the comics.
JA: How do you think Gardner Fox felt about those characters?
ANDERSON: Gardner was hard to read. I don’t know how much he
enjoyed doing comics, but he was a workman and gave everything his
best shot. He might not have liked them particularly; I don’t know. He
never intended to get into comics, but Vin Sullivan was a boyhood
28
A Brief Talk With Golden/Silver Age All-Star Murphy Anderson
liked the concept of the character, and so did I. Of
course, I took the job with Will Eisner while I was
still waiting for a decision on The Spectre. Julie
and I decided that I couldn’t do two books—even
though they were bi-monthlies—while I was
working for Eisner, so he decided to drop
Hawkman. That’s when Murray Boltinoff took
Hawkman over, and Julie started The Spectre so
I would have a bi-monthly magazine. I was happy
with that decision, because I would rather have
drawn The Spectre than Hawkman. Besides,
doing the special effects and backgrounds on The
Spectre was faster and more fun than doing
modern, present-day stuff.
A couple of Anderson firsts: his cover for Showcase #60 (Feb. 1966), the first “Spectre” issue
—and that of The Spectre #1 (Nov.-Dec. 1967). [©2005 DC Comics.]
I preferred drawing The Spectre because of the
workload: not only did Hawkman have wings,
but he had a wife who had wings, and they
[chuckle] went around together a great deal,
which complicated things. I never really cared for
doing mob scenes; that was one of the drawbacks
of doing “The Atomic Knights.” You had six
different people wearing six different suits of
armor. When the decision was made that two of
the Knights would be brothers, I said, “Julie, if
they’re brothers, couldn’t they be twin brothers?”
friend—they went to school together and kept in touch—and Vin asked
Gardner to come to work for him.
JA: “The Spectre” was one of my favorite series of yours, and kind-of
a departure from your other work.
ANDERSON: Julie and I had a lot of fun talking about those stories,
because he brought in aspects that Jerry Siegel [co-creator and writer]
never thought about. Julie drew inspiration from some of the master
writers of the pulp field, and used some concepts out of their fiction.
JA: I’m looking at the Showcase cover where you have Starman and
Black Canary fighting The Mist. Were you looking at [Starman cocreator and artist] Jack Burnley for that, particularly in how you
delineated The Mist?
ANDERSON: Yes. I liked Burnley’s stuff, and wanted to keep the
feeling that Starman was different from Superman. Except for the
headgear and the colors, Starman and Superman were virtually the same
character, perhaps because Burnley had been doing a lot of Superman
before Starman.
JA: Your approach to “The Spectre” is somewhat different from your
approach to “Atomic Knights,” because the themes were different.
ANDERSON: Actually, Julie and I both liked Virgil Finlay and two or
three other science-fiction pulp artists, and Julie would always say,
“Give me a Finlay effect; give me a Finlay monster”... that sort of thing.
So I’d usually pull out the fins and the finned ears to make them look
different.
JA: Both of the Showcase Spectre covers are very striking; especially
issue #61, with the villain hitting The Spectre over the head with the
planet Earth.
ANDERSON: That was Julie’s idea. I can’t take credit for that.
JA: DC must have known rather quickly that the “Spectre” features
in Showcase did well, because he got his own series shortly afterwards.
ANDERSON: I think Julie was going to give him his own series, even if
he didn’t sell particularly well. I don’t know how well they sold. He
“Not only did Hawkman have wings, but he had a wife who had wings!” Hey,
but we loved the way you drew them, Murphy, as per this page from Hawkman
#12 (Feb.-March 1966). Thanks to Shane Foley for sending us b&w copies of
much of this issue, taken from an Australian reprint. [©2005 DC Comics.]
The All-Stars: From The ’40s To The ’80s
part seven
35
“I Jumped At The Opportunity!”
RICH BUCKLER Talks To A Longtime Collaborator About The All-Star Squadron
Interview Conducted by Roy Thomas
Transcribed by Brian K. Morris
A
/E EDITOR’S NOTE: Rich Buckler entered the comic book
field in 1970 with black-&-white work for
Warren Publications, but soon moved on to
DC and Marvel, where at one time or another over
the years he drew virtually every super-hero that
ever was. I distinctly recall that the art samples he
showed me at Marvel circa 1971 dealt with a “wild
man of the jungle” story and was an amalgamation
of an illustrative Al Williamson-style approach with
Kirbyesque dynamics—and thus had some of the
same appeal of the work of Neal Adams. At Marvel
he and I worked together on various series,
including the final three issues of my 70-issue run of
The Avengers in 1972—several fun tales of the
Fantastic Four—and even one story for Conan the
Barbarian! When I signed a contract with DC in
1980 and began to develop All-Star Squadron as one
of my first projects there, I was fortunate in having
Rich as artist—though not for nearly as long as I’d
have liked. In my various installments of “All-Star
Squadron Chronicles” in A/E, I’ve unavoidably
talked about Rich Buckler—so I figured it was high
time I talked, on the record, with the artist I
Rich Buckler, in a recent photo—
nicknamed “Rich ‘Swash’ Buckler.” —Roy.
with (below) the BucklerGiordano art that became the
“interior cover” of the 16-page
All-Star Squadron Preview
included as a free insert in Justice
League of America #193, and
(right) their cover for All-Star
Squadron #1 (Sept. 1981), minus
most wordage. Read below how
these two pages were probably
originally intended for their
opposite numbers. [Art ©2005 DC
Comics.]
ROY THOMAS: You and I had worked together
before we did All-Star Squadron in 1980. I think we
generally liked collaborating, but I don’t have any
recollection of having had any major input on artist
choices at that stage. I’m curious if you remember
how you happened to get the job. Did [editor] Len
Wein call you?
RICH BUCKLER: I don’t remember exactly. It might have been Len,
or it might have been Paul Levitz, but I jumped at the opportunity! I
always like working with you.
RT: Of course, for all I remember, Len and I may have kicked
around artists’ names, and if we did, yours would’ve come up.
Anyway—I’ve always had this vague memory that the drawing that
was used as the cover of All-Star Squadron #1—the one with
Hawkman, Dr. Mid-Nite, and The Atom leaning over the table with
all the hero photos on it—was originally supposed to be the “inside
cover” of the 16-page free Preview that would be inserted in Justice
League of America #193—and that the drawing you did of the entire
JSA charging towards the reader was to be the cover of All-Star
Squadron #1—but that they got switched around, probably by Len.
BUCKLER: Yeah, I remember that vaguely, too. I remember having
trouble drawing the one that was for the Preview, because it involved
the Capitol Building, and it was a lot of work to do. [chuckles] I didn’t
really want to do that one.
36
Rich Buckler Talks About The All-Star Squadron
about the two covers, and he responded: “To the best of my recollection, the table cover was my idea, and I believe the ‘changing
covers’ [i.e., switching which would go on the Preview in JLA #193,
and which on All-Star Squadron #1] was yours. I think we may have
toyed with the idea of switching them at some point, but, like you, I
really love the table shot and am glad we went with it.” Thanks, Len.
—Roy.]
BUCKLER: Well, there were a lot of characters! [Roy laughs] You sent
me a couple of boxes of photocopied research, which was tremendously
helpful. I don’t own all of these books. I remember you saying that
cover with the photos might be “too much work,” but I was just willing
to throw myself into it.
RT: Because I conceived All-Star Squadron as a combination of new
stories, adaptations of Golden Age tales, and events from actual
World War II history, I sent you lots of reference—not just for #1, but
over those five-plus issues you did, a fair amount of reference
material—even books and so forth. Did you ever feel kind-of
overwhelmed by it? Some artists I’ve worked with resented being
asked to do “research”—by which was generally meant just opening
the books or paging through the material I sent them.
BUCKLER: I really appreciated it. Actually, I’m a research nut. In fact,
“Well, there were a lot of characters!” says Rich—and no one would
dispute the point. This Buckler-Ordway chapter splash from All-Star
Squadron #3 (Nov. 1981) depicts twelve heroes—counting Johnny Thunder’s
Thunderbolt and Danette Reilly, soon to be the new Firebrand—converging
on the still-smoking ruins of Pearl Harbor. The date is December 8, 1941, the
day after the Imperial Japanese attack that Degaton’s treachery had kept
the JSA from preventing. Script by Roy Thomas. Repro’d from a photocopy
of the original art, courtesy of Rick Shurgin. [©2005 DC Comics.]
RT: I would have thought the other one with all the “photos”
would’ve been harder.
BUCKLER: No, no. That one was a pure pleasure.
RT: Who came up with the layout? Was it Len’s idea, then you did the
exact layout?
BUCKLER: I remember it as your idea.
RT: Mine?
BUCKLER: For some reason, I remember speaking to you on the
phone about it.
RT: I would love to think that it was—[laughs]—since that’s one of
my all-time favorite covers on any comic that I wrote. The only thing
wrong with those covers—which I later had you correct on the two
re-creations you did for me—was that, somehow, on both of them,
Starman got left off in favor of other characters. For instance, The
Shining Knight was in the “charging” scene, as if he’d been a member
of the JSA, which he never was. But that was minor.
[NOTE: As this issue of A/E was in preparation, I e-mailed Len Wein
This Buckler-penciled, Ordway-inked, Thomas-scripted fact page features JSA
foe Per Degaton—whose second past-altering plot was the linchpin of All-Star
Squadron #1-3—appeared in issue #2. His first, of course, had been in All-Star
Comics #35 in 1947. When Degaton had returned in the first Injustice Society
tale, in All-Star #37, there were several discrepancies with his appearance
only four months earlier, so Roy set the 1981 story in between those two epics,
and had fun reconciling them. Repro’d from a photocopy of the original art,
from Roy’s personal collection. [©2005 DC Comics.]
“I Jumped At The Opportunity!”
37
me like a Wally Wood influence and I
thought, “Oh, that’s good.” Len
showed it to me and said, “Don’t
worry. The guy’s really good.”
And it wouldn’t be the first
time I worked with
someone new or even
broke that person in.
RT: At one time you
had newcomers
like George
Pérez and
Arvell Jones
and Craig
Russell and
different people
working with you.
BUCKLER: Right—
and Jim Lee. I
remember when we
did some
independent
publishing, we
published Jim Lee’s first work. I’ve always been open to new people.
And in Jerry Ordway’s case, it was a delightful surprise.
Rich says he especially liked drawing Johnny Thunder and The Shining
Knight, both seen with their unique modes of transportation on the
preceding page—as well as Robotman, shown here in the Buckler-Ordway
splash from All-Star Squadron #3, and Liberty Belle, whom they depicted in
this pin-up. Also shown on the splash, of course, are Hawkman, Johnny
Quick, and Per Degaton; it’s repro’d from a photocopy of the original art,
provided by Jerry K. Boyd. Thanks to Jerry Ordway for the 1981 Liberty Belle
art. The latter was printed in All-Star Squadron #10 (June ’82): no crack was
added to the bell sigil (since the crack hadn’t appeared in her 1940s
adventures in Boy Commandos and Star Spangled Comics), although it had
been added in the 1980s stories, starting with Squadron #2. But Roy did
have Rich & Jerry give Belle a mask, which she lacked in the ’40s tales.
[©2005 DC Comics.]
I remember that, when I worked with you on Captain America: The
Medusa Effect, one of the main characters was Nikola Tesla. I didn’t
know who Tesla was before that. After that, I became so interested that I
got everything I could that was printed on him.
I had a few of the black-&-white reprint comics from that time, on
my own. They helped me get into the feel, the flavor of the ’40s. And
also, I think I had a lot of reprints of newspaper strip art from around
that time.
RT: I felt that, if I was going to ask somebody to draw this comic
book that’s almost like a tapestry or a mosaic of early DC history, I’d
better be the one who does most of the legwork on it. I figured you
were doing enough just to draw it.
BUCKLER: Well, it wasn’t enough just to draw it. For me, it was
necessary to capture the flavor of that time period, too, so I worked hard
on that—and at the same time to make it a comic for the ’80s, new and
fresh and exciting.
RT: That was a tightrope we were always walking. So what were you
expecting when Jerry Ordway, as a newcomer, was assigned to ink
the book?
BUCKLER: I had no idea who he was. I saw some of what looked to
RT: My recollection is that, when you drew Degaton, who’d been in
two issues of All-Star Comics, I was surprised because you drew him
six feet tall, and he’d always been drawn as very short. Were you
instructed to make Degaton taller?
BUCKLER: I don’t remember. I think probably I was concentrating on
the storytelling and characterizing him as imposing a figure as possible.
RT: When you did a “Fact File” pin-up of Degaton, his proportions
are more like a guy 5’4” at most. By that time, we’d got it straight,
and the copy reflected his correct height.
BUCKLER: I made sure that The Atom was short!
RT: Degaton was a Napoleon type in military garb. Were there any
characters, either the JSA or heroes we brought in from other DC and
Quality comics, that you particularly liked—or hated—to draw?
Johnny Quick or Liberty Belle or Robotman…
BUCKLER: Johnny Quick was a favorite of mine. I just liked that
whole relationship where it’s two characters in one, and—no, I’m sorry,
not Johnny Quick. Johnny Thunder.
RT: Johnny Thunder? We didn’t do much with him.
BUCKLER: But I liked him. He was sort-of like the Captain MarvelBilly Batson thing. Robotman was also one of my favorites. And Shining
Knight—I love drawing guys on flying horses.
RT: [laughs] Yeah, there’s so many of them. Years later, of course, we
worked on The Black Knight at Marvel together, too. What about
Liberty Belle, who had that weird outfit?
BUCKLER: Ah, I loved Liberty Belle.
RT: Really? Despite the jodhpurs and all that? That was kind-of
unusual. She was like this cross between a strong Barbara Stanwyck
and, in her solo stories in the 1940s, Veronica Lake with her peekaboo
hair style.
BUCKLER: Yeah, and it was hard to get her to look right at the right
angle for the different shots, and I worked at it because I liked the
different look.
The All-Stars: From The ’40s to the ’80s
part eight
43
“You Put Me Through My Paces!”
JERRY ORDWAY On Working With MIKE MACHLAN
& ROY THOMAS On All-Star Squadron And Infinity, Inc.
Interview Conducted by Roy Thomas Via E-Mail
A
/E EDITOR’S NOTE: Has it really been thirty issues—pushing three years—since the first part
of this interview, titled “Inking Comics the ORDway,” appeared in Alter Ego #14? Clearly,
super-heroes aren’t the only thing that flies when you’re having a good time. Back then, Jerry
spoke of how, in 1980, he landed his first pro assignment under editor Len Wein: All-Star Squadron.
That part of this interview dealt with Jerry’s inking Rich Buckler’s pencils in the Preview insert in
Justice League of America #193 and in the five issues Rich drew of the regular Squadron series.
This second segment covers both his remaining stint on the comic, and how he segued over to the
new Infinity, Inc. title. As the writer and co-creator of both those series, it was a pleasure to work
with Jerry on them, and to re-live those halcyon days in this interview. —Roy.
(Above:) Jerry Ordway with his three
children, Rachel, Thomas, and James (the
youngest). Jerry’s wife, Peggy May Ordway,
worked as marketing & publicity director for
DC Comics from 1985-90. Photo by his
mother-law, Mr. Pat Donath. A family affair!
(Below:) Jerry drew this panoramic twopage spread for the “All-Star Squadron”
entry in Who’s Who: The Definitive Directory
of the DC Universe #1 (March 1985). Of
course, it depicts only a fraction of the
actual membership, especiallly before Crisis
on Infinite Earths thinned the ranks by a half
dozen or so heroes by 1986. Repro’d from a
photocopy of the original art, courtesy of
Jerry Ordway. [©2005 DC Comics.]
ROY THOMAS: How did you feel about Adrian Gonzales, who replaced Rich starting with AllStar Squadron #6?
JERRY ORDWAY: Adrian did a respectable job, though Len’s first comments to me
indicated that he thought I would abandon the book when Rich did. I was too
new to realize that was the way the game was
played. I wasn’t going anywhere, as I would’ve
honored my 12-issue contract, anyway.
44
Jerry Ordway On All-Star Squadron And Infinity, Inc.
ORDWAY: I inked most of it on a lightbox, working from stats of an
already-inked job, from the Cancelled Comic Cavalcade. You cut and
pasted that job and wrote a framing sequence that Adrian Gonzales
drew. I didn’t want to ink on vellum this time, as my last such
experience [on All-Star Squadron #1] had been a nightmare, so I went
all-out and redrew it on board, and had fun with the zip-a-tone. Years
later, at a DC Christmas party, I met Don Heck, and he told me how
much he liked it, so that was gratifying.
RT: With #7 I just began referring to you and Gonzales in the credits
as the “artists,” rather than penciler and inker or embellisher. Did
you ask for the change, do you recall?
ORDWAY: I’m sure I was relentless with Len in getting credit I thought
was due. Remember, DC kept stringing me along about getting penciling
work, and I felt I had a lot to prove, so I was pretty touchy about that. I
found that, as we went along, I was asked to redraw more and more
panels per issue, so I guess that was good therapy for the penciler in me,
too.
RT: You did an intended cover for All-Star Squadron #11 with that
“alien” facing the heroes, but it wasn’t used. (Joe Kubert did that
cover, too.) I used your drawing as a pin-up later. Had you just done
that possible cover on your own, or had you worked it out with Len?
This action page, inked and finished by Jerry Ordway, is from All-Star
Squadron #6 (Feb. 1982), the first issue with pencil breakdowns by Adrian
Gonzales. Repro’d from a photocopy of the (autographed) original art,
courtesy of Michael Dunne. [©2005 DC Comics.]
RT: Weren’t Adrian’s pencils looser than Rich’s? Did Len and/or I
have you doing even more changes?
ORDWAY: Adrian was doing more traditional layouts, I guess. They
had more structure than much of what Rich did, but had no mood or
lighting indicated. As for changes, there were a fair amount asked for,
but I liked what the guy did. I also guess, at that point I had become the
more important part of the art team, as you and Len looked to me to
keep the artwork consistent with the previous five issues.
RT: At this point you began inking the covers, as well, including
Rich’s final one on #6.
ORDWAY: I was ready by then, I think, and enjoyed it a lot. Hawkman
looked like your favorite Kubert version on that one!
RT: How did you feel about the Joe Kubert covers that began again
with #7?
ORDWAY: I was torn, really, because they were great covers, and I’m a
huge fan of Joe’s, but I really wanted the whole book to have my stamp
on it artistically. I understood Len’s thinking, though.
RT: You also inked the Don Heck-penciled “Steel” episodes that I
tossed in from his canceled title. How was Don to ink?
Jerry’s first attempt at an All-Star Squadron cover was this sterling art,
done for issue #11 (July 1982). It saw print four years later as a color
pin-up in All-Star Squadron #65. Repro’d from a photocopy of the
original art, courtesy of J.O. [©2005 DC Comics.]
“You Put Me Through My Paces!”
45
The pages of All-Star Squadron #8-9 which featured a solo flashback starring Steel, the Indestructible Man, were left over from the never-published 6th issue of
that hero’s own title, which had fallen victim to the so-called “DC Implosion” of 1978. That tale (splash at left), by Gerry Conway (script), Don Heck (pencils),
and Joe Giella (inks), was one of numerous stories distributed to a small, select audience in two house-assembled volumes of Cancelled Comic Cavalcade.
Roy liked the notion of adding a “Captain America type” to the All-Stars; thus, with Gerry’s blessing and editor Len Wein’s okay, that unused “Steel” story was
serialized over two issues of the new mag, re-inked by Jerry Ordway since the photocopies in CCC were less than pristine. The two new panels at the top of the
Squadron page (right) were drawn by Gonzales and Ordway, and written by Roy T. (By the way, that’s British Prime Minister Winston Churchill smoking the cigar
in panel 2.) Roy, however, didn’t care much for the name “Steel” by itself, so at the end of #9 he promoted the hero to “Commander Steel”—and thus he
remained for the rest of the series. [©2005 DC Comics.]
ORDWAY: I just did it, I think, when I was inking the interiors of the
book—I’m sure, with your blessing. I sent it in, only to find that Kubert
had already turned in a cover for that issue. I was trying to break out of
the inker’s rut, and never expected to get paid for it when it wasn’t
needed, though you did use it later and I was paid then.
RT: You skipped one issue—#13, which was inked by Mike DeCarlo.
Remember why? Perhaps because you were working on the All-Star
Squadron Annual around that time?
ORDWAY: Yes, it was a big job, that one, and also another favorite
story of mine that you wrote. I really worked over Adrian’s layouts on
that! I think it holds up well, if I say so myself.
RT: I agree with you. In the Annual, you did a pin-up of The
Guardian and The Newsboy Legion [see p. 3]. Was this Len’s idea, or
yours?
ORDWAY: I think Len threw that to me as a bone, to appease me. I did
the cover of that one, as well, pencils and inks. They gave me an Ed
Hannigan sketch to work from, and I recall totally finishing it, and then
not being satisfied with it, as I was just fighting the layout. Ed’s cover
sketches were great, and you could basically just blow them up and ink
them on a lightbox, but again, at this time, I was trying to prove myself,
so I did another version, veering more from Ed’s layout, and sent them
both in. I’m pretty sure, thinking back on it, that Len used the second
one I did [see next page]. I felt I was getting somewhere! I got to do a
cover!
RT: All-Star Squadron #14-15 were part of 1981’s JLA-JSA crossover.
Was this the first time you’d worked on the JLA?
ORDWAY: Yes, in comic book form. I had drawn them before in fan
drawings, and also a coloring/activity book for Golden Books. That had
led to my getting work from DC a few years later.
RT: In #16-18 Adrian was inked by Rick Hoberg—then you returned
in #19 doing full pencils and inks. Were you off All-Star Squadron for
three issues so you could pencil #19? If so, I must’ve done one plot
way ahead of time.
ORDWAY: Well, essentially, you plotted ahead on #19, and then wrote
#16-18 while I was toiling away on the pencils. I needed the lead time, as
the book was running pretty late, and Len didn’t want me starting
behind the eight-ball, deadline-wise. I needed that time, too, because I
was pretty rusty storytelling-wise, after all that inking.
RT: How did you get Len to give you a shot at penciling the book?
46
Jerry Ordway On All-Star Squadron And Infinity, Inc.
inker later, with sketchy or vague pencils.
RT: You both penciled and inked #19-20, the story in which all the
All-Stars seemed to die in their dreams. Any particular thoughts
about it?
ORDWAY: Well, I ate up my lead time, discovering I couldn’t pencil
and ink on a monthly schedule! I had a lot of fun drawing Electro, the
robot from the Fair. Also, DC stuck pretty close to the color guides I
did for those two covers. It was an emotional story, and I didn’t want to
cheat the readers, so I threw everything I had into it.
RT: I’ve always felt the covers for both those issues were extraordinary. Were you happy to finally be doing covers? (What happened
to the original art, by the way? Do you still have photocopies of any
covers or interior art?)
IF YOU ENJOYED THIS PREVIEW,
CLICK THE COVER TO ORDER THIS
ISSUE IN PRINT OR DIGITAL FORMAT!
Jerry’s cover for All-Star Squadron Annual #1 (1982). Repro’d from
photocopies of the original art, courtesy of J.O. [©2005 DC Comics.]
Was Adrian leaving of his own accord at the time, or did you force
the issue?
ORDWAY: Well, as I stated, DC was giving me the runaround on
penciling assignments. While inking All-Star, I started inking the
“Huntress” back-up feature in Wonder Woman. Joe Staton was
penciling it, and I was told he was leaving in a few issues. Well, I inked
two, and then a third, and I asked what was going on, and then had a
chance to talk with Staton, who said he wasn’t going anywhere—he
loved doing “The Huntress.” I felt burned.
Anyhow, I guess Ernie Colón, who was editing Flash at the time,
heard my plight and offered me an 8-page “Creeper” back-up, pencils
and inks. I decided that, if I didn’t take that, I’d never get a chance to
move up again. I called Len and quit All-Star. He asked me why, and I
told him. He then shot back at me, “Why don’t you pencil All-Star,
instead?” I was flabbergasted. I told him I didn’t want to bump Adrian
off the book, as that was unfair. Len said he would switch Adrian to
Arak and keep him busy. I thought about it a second, and said yes.
[NOTE: Arak, Son of Thunder was a sword-and-sorcery title that
my wife Dann and I had created at the same time I’d started All-Star
Squadron. —Roy.]
RT: I must’ve sent you lots of reference about the 1939-40 New York
World’s Fair, since in #19 you drew the Four Freedoms statues, Electro
the Robot, the Trylon and Perisphere, etc.
ORDWAY: You did send me a lot of reference, but I had the shots of
the Four Freedoms in the 1930s volume of Time-Life’s This Fabulous
Century series, which I’d been using for reference on period detail
anyway.
RT: You had a lot of heroes to draw in #19, since there are a half a
dozen or so All-Stars—then eight members of the JSA in captivity.
How hard was it to pencil a book like All-Star Squadron?
ORDWAY: It was a trial by fire, that’s for sure! I have always been a
scribbler as a penciler, preferring to finish the drawing in ink. I had to
learn on the job to pencil tightly, so that I wouldn’t torture some poor
ALTER EGO #44
JSA/All-Star Squadron/Infinity Inc. special! Interviews with
KUBERT, HASEN, ANDERSON, ORDWAY, BUCKLER,
THOMAS, 1940s Atom writer ARTHUR ADLER, art by TOTH,
SEKOWSKY, HASEN, MACHLAN, OKSNER, and INFANTINO,
FCA, and MR. MONSTER’S “I Like Ike!” cartoons by BOB
KANE, INFANTINO, OKSNER, and BIRO! Wraparound
ORDWAY cover!
(100-page magazine) $5.95
(Digital Edition) $2.95 US
Jerry still has photocopies of several pages of Adrian Gonzales’ pencil layouts
for All-Star Squadron #18 (Feb. 1983)—ironically, an issue inked by Rick
Hoberg, while Jerry was busy working on #19, his first penciling effort. #18
introduced readers to Tarantula, who in the 1940s sported a costume nighidentical to Sandman’s purple-and-yellow togs. The hammer-wielding
villain is “Fairytales” Fenton, a.k.a. “The Villain from Valhalla,” who’d
debuted as a fake Thor in Simon & Kirby’s “Sandman” tale in Adventure
Comics #75 (June 1942). We’d show you a Simon & Kirby “Thor” page, or even
the finished page by Gonzales/Hoberg—but we’ve gotta hold something back
for our extended coverage of the Golden Age roots of All-Star Squadron in
the trade paperback All-Star Companion, Vol. 2, due out later this year!
[©2005 DC Comics.]