Truly one of the most unique and innovative

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Toss
Toss Panos
Panos
Heartfelt Groove From The Old Country
Interview: RICH Mangicaro
Photos: RICHARD Pierce
STUDIO: PHANTOM VOX
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Anastasios “Toss” Panos was introduced to me years ago by my dear friend Joe Porcaro. At the time, Joe
was teaching at Hollywood’s Musician’s Institute [M.I.] and I came in one day to do some Paiste business. I
periodically asked Joe to keep me informed of new, up-and-coming drummers, and, as you can imagine, he’s
one who would know. Joe’s taught thousands of players from all over the world, and has seen some amazing
young talent grace the floors of LA’s Percussion Institute [P.I.T. part of M.I.]. Out of all the 20-plus years I’ve
known Joe, one drummer he recommended stands out, and I’ll never forget when he took me into a classroom
to meet Toss. Shortly after that, we met at LA’s Baked Potato and I saw Toss play for the first time. It was the
kind of experience where you express yourself by just one word…or a grunt. I just remember thinking, “Where
is this guy from, and where have I been?!”
To answer the first question, Toss was born in the old country, Greece, and having been born on Valentine’s
Day, was destined to possess a heartfelt groove. Add to that an upbringing with a strong family bond, and that
famous Greek zest for life—rhythmic celebratory music, robust food…you get the picture. Toss took this early
influence and catapulted it all to a whole other level. Truly one of the most unique and innovative drummers
I’ve had the pleasure of watching, Toss Panos should be on the top of your “must know” list. Just search for
him on YouTube and check out the video of him live with Robben Ford, “How Deep In The Blues.” First off, I
challenge you to find one, and then just dig the deep groove that Toss throws down. In fact, record your initial
reaction and post that on YouTube!
Rich Mangicaro: How old were you when you
left Greece?
Toss Panos: About two and a half years old;
we ended up in San Diego. At that time,
all the Greeks went to either San Diego or
Australia. It was the similar climate I guess.
RM: What were some of your early musical
influences? Was it Greek folk music?
TP: Well, that was around me, but really,
what hit me early on was R&B: The Ohio
Players, James Brown, along with Elton
John, Joni Mitchell and the whole [American]
folk scene. When I was six, I saw this guy
playing drums through a window and it had
a huge effect on me. We didn’t have any
money at the time, so dad rented that kid’s
snare drum for me, for a week. I played
along with those records on the snare, using
the rim as a hi-hat. A month later, I got the
kit from the guy and could play it right away.
That kit lasted for seven years, no hi-hat,
one cymbal, and I played the rim as my hat
all that time. Funny, to this day, I still use
the rim as a ride in a lot of grooves I play.
Records I’m on now, you’ll hear me play the
rim in the verse and then go to the hat or
ride in the chorus. I never thought about it,
but that had to be from those early days.
RM: What was your first formal training?
TP: Actually, not ‘till M.I. [Musicians Institute].
We didn’t even have a record player. I
played to songs on the radio, so I guess
Bonham, Mitch Mitchell, James Brown’s
drummers; all those cats were my early
teachers. I didn’t play in school bands, none
of that. What I can say is at ten years old I
started playing Greek music. By the time I
was that age, I could sing a thousand Greek
tunes, so when I started playing them, it was
second nature. I knew all the folk stuff.
RM: Growing up around that music, talk about
the feel and time signatures associated with
Greek music.
TP: Well, the first thing would be that polkatype groove, “ooom-pah, ooom-pah” thing,
which is common in a lot of folk grooves in
many countries. You hear that in Germany,
Poland, Mexico…all over. Then, there’s 3/4,
“The thought of going to LA scared me shitless;
I thought I would go there and fail.”
Photo: George Wells
033
but not like a waltz 3/4, more syncopated with
a bit of two over three in it. I don’t remember
4/4 much. There would be a lot of five, seven
and nine feels. Mostly, they were very simply
combinations like 2/2/3 or 3/2/2, or variations,
but very simple. They didn’t use a drum set,
but used tambourine, bongos or a military
snare. I ended up playing in a Greek night club
at ten years old on weekends, and dad would
watch and get a kick out of it! He didn’t really
want me to play drums and didn’t think of it as
a profession. His business was restaurants
and saw a lot of weird stuff, so he didn’t want
me getting mixed up in the wrong crowd. But,
I played with older Greek cats and got my
training with the real dudes. I did that ‘til I was
22 and made a living playing Greek, Persian
and Armenian music…all mixed in.
RM: Which teacher made the first big
impression on you?
TP: Actually, Persian music utilizes six a lot.
[Toss taps out a groove where the bass drum
remained constant and his hands accented
on one and five of the eighth notes.] Greek
music had more of the odd-time stuff, but
was also influenced by jazz-fusion. You
could hear the influence of Steve Gadd in
some of the Greek music and how his style
of syncopation was applied. He was probably
one of the early cats who bridged that music
with the folk stuff. Also, Paul Simon of course.
As far as the recording industry in Greece,
all the cats tuned the drums like Gadd and
the producers wanted that really dead, easily
attainable tone.
TP: I have to say it was Joe Porcaro. He just
had so much class when he walked in the
room. He was so prepared, dressed nice,
had his books and he had that Connecticut
thing…that Italian, back-East thing. You just
felt you had to respect him.
And the other guys were all super too.
Ralph Humphrey, Steve Houghton, those
guys we were all totally afraid of, but they
were nice cats and just great. Steve kicked
my ass, made me a better musician and
taught me how to read. He made me get up
in front of class, and, while sweating bullets,
made me play a big band chart that I’d been
up all night practicing. I’d get through two
bars and stop. I did do the homework, but
got afraid when people were watching me.
He busted my balls and didn’t believe that
I’d practiced, so it pissed me off enough that
I eventually got over my stage-fright thing.
At the end of that year, it was the best thing
I ever did and the best year of my life.
RM: Did you gig in San Diego a lot? And at
what age did you leave that town?
RM: Before you got to P.I.T. you hadn’t had
any jazz experience, right?
RM: How did you find out about M.I.?
RM: It’s interesting to hear what you are
saying. You had a deeper appreciation of
whatever music it was, because you learned
the roots of that music.
RM: Do all those styles revolve around oddmeter grooves?
TP: I left when I was 19. I was in a country
band and still doing the Greek thing. Some
friends had a studio, so for four years I
had recording experience down there…no
money of course, but it started my studio
chops. I used to go there and record pop
songs to a click. Still, at that point, I couldn’t
read a note. All my playing was by ear.
TP: All my friends were going on to college
and I was working at my dad’s restaurant
part-time and playing in bands. I kind of felt
like a loser, and then saw an ad with Joe
Porcaro and Ralph Humphrey teaching at
P.I.T. The thought of going to LA scared me
shitless; I thought I would go there and fail. I
couldn’t read and thought I would get eaten
alive.
RM: What was your audition like?
TP: It was rough. I drove up to LA and it
was either Joe Brancato or Chuck Flores
who heard me. But, it was actually Joe
Brancato’s wife who said, “Honey, you gotta
go back to San Diego and get some lessons
034
‘cause you didn’t pass this test.” They
rejected me, initially. So, I did go back. I
hired some guy in San Diego and got some
reading lessons. It barely worked. I still
didn’t understand tied notes, but I went back
up and somehow I passed–barely. It took
me about three months and I finally began
to understand the tied thing. I worked at it
every night and shed every morning, 6 a.m.
At that time, class of ’85, everybody could
play. Everybody was bad!
TP: Right, I didn’t know that stuff at all. I
learned so much in that first year, and what I
also found out was that I liked a lot of styles
of music. As long as it was soulful and had
some kind of roots, I could appreciate it.
TP: I really think that’s true. I was speaking
recently to Luis Conte and told him I like folk
music. He said, “I know you do. I can hear
that in your playing.” It’s so true with the
Latin guys because they grow up that way.
They begin with folk roots.
RM: What happened after your year at
P.I.T.?
TP: Actually, for the first time in my life,
I thought I wasn’t good enough to be a
professional drummer, so I went to Long
Beach City College for business. I went to
college and had a Greek band, to make
money. It was a smoking hot, fusion-Greek
band…all the players were killing. We’d play
on the weekends. Then one day I got a call
from Ike Willis’s bass player. Ike was the
singer for Zappa and they asked me to come
to LA for an audition. It was then that I realized
that the school idea was bullshit; that I was a
musician and had to move back to LA. I rented
the house that I still live in today with four other
drummers, started working with Ike and got a
gig teaching at M.I. That teaching gig lasted
nine years.
RM: That’s when we met…when Joe Porcaro
brought me into a class of yours. I saw
you play right after that and remember
taking notice of your very unique style, and
specifically, your left hand.
TP: Yeah, I play traditional grip. I played that
way as a kid because I saw Charlie Watts on
TV, the same time I saw Buddy Rich. That’s
the way I thought you played, even the rock
guys played that way, so that’s how I learned.
Some 20 years later at M.I., Ralph Humphrey
shows. I didn’t even know who they were, since
I didn’t listen to the radio, but when I heard it, I
loved it.
I went to the audition and they had
already heard four other drummers. When I
got there, they wanted me to take my drums
up a flight of stairs and I was thinking, “For
an audition?” I told Kevin that I had a VHS
of a band I’d been playing with, a prog rock
band called The Fire Merchants, which
featured Brand X’s guitarist John Goodsall
and Doug Lunn on bass. I asked him if we
could watch that video and said he’d know
whether I was the right guy for the gig after
seeing that! Balls, huh?! Well, he flipped
out within two bars! I didn’t know at the
time that he was a huge prog-rock fan, so
I got lucky and got the gig immediately. I
did come back however the next day, with
my drums, learned a few of their songs
and we played. You can actually see that
audition on YouTube. Somebody had a
up playing with Kevin’s band called Thud
and did their first record. From there, it just
snowballed for me.
RM: Who were some of the other artists you
worked with at that time?
TP: Jude Cole and Dweezil Zappa both
hired me then. I also subbed for Chad
Wackerman on “The Dennis Miller Show;”
met Andy Summers and a lot of other cats.
That lasted for about six months and was
great for connections.
Along with Miller’s show, I also played
on Larry Sanders’s and Roseanne Barr’s
shows. Oh, and I met Mike Keneally at that
time and did a bunch of his records. His
stuff was some of the hardest and wackiest
music I ever had to play. Very Zappa-like;
didn’t provide charts so I had to sit and
figure it all out on my own. It would take me
three or four days to write out one thing, but
it was great for my reading. Funny thing is
“I’d get through two bars and stop.
I did do the homework, but got afraid when people were watching me.”
suggested I change to matched grip, but that
never felt right to me. When I began at that
school I didn’t even know any rudiments. Joe
taught me rudiments and noticed my way of
playing. He encouraged me not to change my
technique and said I was already developing
my own sound. His way of teaching was very
practical and applicable.
RM: What was the breakthrough gig for you
at that time?
TP: Toy Matinee. Joe told me they were looking
for a drummer. Their record was already done
and on the radio. Pat Leonard produced it
and co-wrote, along with Kevin Gilbert, and
they were looking for a drummer for their live
camera there that day, so you can see those
rehearsals.
RM: Who was in that band?
TP: It was Sheryl Crow on keys, guitars and
background vocals; Spencer Campbell on
bass; Mark Bonilla on guitar; Kevin and me.
It only lasted for a month, unfortunately.
I ended up working with Kevin for a while
after that, and he produced one of the Fire
Merchants records. To this day, it holds
up and he brought such a great sound to
the band. He was truly brilliant. This was
the same time period when Sheryl Crow’s
Tuesday Night Music Club was born. She
and Kevin were dating at the time. I ended
that it’s all gone now…I can’t read figures
like that anymore! We just don’t get that kind
of stuff now; so I’m just out of practice.
RM: What method or technique would you
recommend to someone now, for charting
out a song they’re trying to learn? What do
you feel is the best way to construct a song’s
road map?
TP: Start with writing out the measures,
the blank measures. Then count out the
phrases, like an eight-bar phrase, whatever
it is, the verse, etc. You might want to write
the groove in the first bar and then notate
repeat, seven more, for example. Then
just map out the rest of the tune like this,
035
“no matter what happened before the gig, how far you’ve traveled, how
tired you are...when you get on the gig, you just throw down.”
count out the rest of the tune’s sections and
notate them. Get the form down first and
the groove and tempo. Then make notes for
specific kicks and accents within the groove.
Listen to it a lot and you’ll know it and figure
how to notate it. The more you do this, the
better you get at reading and writing stuff
out. With Keneally music, it was a lot more
difficult as you can imagine. For pop stuff, it
can be pretty straightforward.
RM: Are you still seeing charts on session
these days?
TP: Less and less. However, I just did a
session with Beck and they presented a
20-page piano chart, which was a spoof on a
Yanni tune. Everything was written out, all the
time changes and kicks, which was helpful.
We didn’t absolutely adhere to the chart, but
I was glad I had all my early training because
it made it easier for me to adapt quickly.
I think these days you’re still ahead of the
game if you know how to read and write,
but also, you must have good ears and be
able to hear it quickly. A good practice is to
play a tune to yourself, play four bars, stop it
036
and see how much of it you’ve memorized.
Train yourself to do this. Then expand
to eight bars, sixteen, etc. You’ll start to
know the form of the song quicker. The
better you become with this, the more you’ll
work. You’d be surprised how many studio
musicians, who don’t read well, have this
skill down pat and can memorize song form
and figures with ease.
For reading practice, I recommend Ted
Reed’s Syncopation, Louie Bellson’s Odd
Time Reading, any of Joe Porcaro’s books
and Steve Houghton’s books on reading
charts, just to name a few. Learn figures
and rhythms so you can write out your own
chart.
RM: Let’s go back to some of the artists
you’ve played with. You were talking about
Keneally…
TP: You know, somehow I became known
in the fusion world, but my heart has always
been in the pop or folk scene: I always like
simplicity and a good song. After Mike’s
thing, I played with Steve Vai and a slew
of other guitar-heavy cats. It wasn’t really
my thing though. At that time, I was leaning
more towards a looser vibe and into funk,
rootsy stuff, and loved focusing on groove
and feel. I did however meet Mike Landau at
that time and connected with him on a much
deeper level than the other guitar cats.
We found out we were both into the same
music scene, like Los Lobos, Little Village,
New Orleans stuff, Latin…we connected
on all that. I also became more interested
in varying tones on my drums and messing
with my sound to fit the music. I used to
throw rocks in the floor tom and mike the
bottom head, or play Chinas for hi-hats.
My snares would be real thuddy and [I’d]
have a second snare tuned even lower.
Landau and I would experiment a lot and
we made four great records together. I think
those recordings helped expand my visibility
and are what led me to working later with
Robben Ford.
RM: Talk about your current work with Robben
and also Draco Rosa. How did that all come
about?
TP: I’m on three records with Robben that I
love and still work with him. We just recently
did a few tours together, one of which included
Larry Carlton. I love playing with Robben, his
thing leans pretty blues heavy, which is great.
Rosa is also someone I love playing with and
have done four records with him.
RM: How did you meet Rosa?
TP: Lyle Workman. He gave me a CD
of Rosa’s with Vinnie on the record. I
auditioned and the audition was recorded
to Pro Tools…weird. I didn’t like that part
and ended up asking them to delete the
recording after I auditioned. They agreed
and then Rosa came in, listened and gave
me the gig immediately. That’s turned out
to be an eight-year relationship and a great
friendship. When he was ten years old,
he became incredibly famous with the
band Menudo. Rosa’s a very successful
songwriter. He wrote Ricky Martin’s “Livin’
La Vida Loca” and “She Bangs,” but his own
music is really more rock and folk driven.
We’ve recorded and toured extensively,
and he’s huge in the Latin market, especially
Puerto Rico. His big arena rock show is
where I really get to slam and play in front
of 20,000 screaming fans; he sells out those
size venues. That band sometimes features
Paul McCartney’s guitarist Rusty Anderson;
it’s nice to play with Rusty. He also has a
more acoustic, successful record called
Amor Vincit Omnia, which I shared with Luis
Conte–really cool, vibey stuff.
RM: Regarding Latin playing, you’ve worked
a lot with Luis Conte and other Latin cats. Can
you share something about Latin playing?
TP: I think it’s about understanding the
phrasing. It has an upbeat, forward motion
vibe and tends to avoid the downbeat.
Many times when playing with cats like
Luis, they tell me not to worry about the
clave and just play time–they usually will
want to cover the clave. It’s like a religion to
them, so us gringos can’t cross that line. I
can fake my way through it, but those guys
live that world. I think with soloing though,
learn the Latin language, as well as the
African and Middle Eastern thing to give
your vocabulary more depth. You’ll find your
solos to be much more interesting.
RM: You mentioned once to me that Jim
Keltner is a huge influence. Maybe an obvious
question, but what aspects of his playing have
turned you on?
TP: Man, everything. First of all: his sound.
He’s one of the true innovators of changing
the kit’s sound to fit the music. He’s always
experimenting with new, strange and weird
things on his drums, and always so unique.
Whether it’s with drum sizes, head choices,
stick choices, stacked sounds…he’s the
one who’s inspired me to stretch my mind
and think outside the box.
Also, speaking of soloing, Jim uses a
double pedal unlike anyone else I’ve seen.
He uses his feet like two hands. He’ll
play figures with his feet, under stuff he’s
playing with his hands and it’s the funkiest
thing. That’s what he uses double pedal for.
There’s a difference in the note between
the two feet and when he stacks that
under, say a train feel he’s playing: it’s just
so funky. It’s not about playing fast but
more about playing supportive figures…
incredible. Nobody talks about playing the
bass drum like this. This blows me away
more than anything.
RM: I feel the same way. He’s definitely one
of my biggest inspirations. I saw him do just
what you’re referring to when he was playing
with Neil Young. So exciting.
TP: That stuff really inspires me. It’s really
technique driven from Latin or Moroccan
music, and seems that Jim may have been
hip to this as well. I love applying this stuff to
American music in any way I can.
RM: What about your band, Shogun
Warrior?
TP: Shogun Warrior is a band I’ve played
with for eight years, once a month, at the
Baked Potato. My close friends Jeff Babko
(keyboards), Mike Elizando (bass), Toshi
Yanagi (guitars) and John Daversa (trumpet)
get together on the first Sunday of every
“As long as [music] was soulful and had some kind of roots,
I could appreciate it.”
Photo: J. Garcia / Phantom Vox Studios, Hollywood, CA.
037
“Try whenever possible to be original
and express your own voice.”
038
month and blow for two and a half hours—
unrehearsed and in the moment! The kids
love this band, and I’m happy to turn them on
to a jam band that can actually jam!
RM: Great players in that band. Working with
both Robben and Carlton, seems you’re still
active with the guitar artist thing?
TP: Yeah, somehow that’s still presented to
me. Robben’s great and such a complete
musician the way he melds styles and
incorporates vocals too. I’ve worked with him
for about ten years now, and it’s a gig that I’m
free to be completely myself. Working with
him has led to a bunch of other artists too. Bill
Evans saw me playing with Robben and that
led to some touring with Bill.
RM: What are some of your favorite aspects
about playing with Robben?
TP: His tone is incredible, for one, and his
solos are amazing. You almost never hear
the same lick twice. He’s a master with
phrasing, and that’s helped my soloing a
lot, making me think in long phrases. It’s
not technique based, but more a melodic
approach to soloing. I love this. His energy
has also inspired me. I’ve learned from
working with him that no matter what
happened before the gig, how far you’ve
traveled, how tired you are, that when you
get on the gig, you just throw down. You
give it a 110%. He brings that to the table
and he inspires his band to do the same.
RM: What’s the most difficult aspect of that gig?
TP: The volume. He plays quite loud and
it’s hard to play a shuffle and play all the
nuances at that volume. Also, most times
we’re at the mercy of whatever monitor
sywstem is provided, which many times
is less than desirable. Sometimes, no
monitors! Many times, you’re dealing with
‘drums-du-jour’. I call it Jazz Marines. It’s
like boot camp for these guys sometimes.
So, you do the best you can, hit it hard for
those two hours and head to the next one.
RM: You’re currently working with both John
Scofield and Michael McDonald. Both of
these artists came to you via Robben, right?
TP: John flew out from New York with
bassist Andy Hess, and they came out here
to my studio with Robben. We ended up
doing strictly an old-school blues thing. We
did two and a half days of rehearsals, it went
great, and now the four of us are going to
New York to do a week at the Blue Note. It’s
very cool in the style of blues legends J.B.
Lenoir or Robert Johnson. Robben and John
playing together sound like a horn section,
a very cool, unique sound. This is the first
time they’ve done this and they’ve already
booked the 2011 Playboy Jazz Festival,
Australia and a bunch of other dates. I’m
totally thrilled about this project. To me, John
is the Thelonious Monk of guitar.
but they converted a home to record in…like
what goes on in Nashville a lot.
RM: He’s truly that. You’re following in the
footsteps of some great drummers who’ve
held that chair.
RM: Speaking of Andy, you did some live
work with him, right?
TP: I was pretty nervous when he came by,
but he was very cool. He said to me, “Man,
you got that ‘in the cracks’ type thing…it’s
swingin’, it’s straight, it’s subtle, it’s powerful. I
like what you do. It’s hard to find guys who do
that and you’re the kind of drummer I like.”
I was very honored. I’ve listened to John
my whole life so I knew what to do with him.
And because we’re doing that old-school
blues thing, I can use a funkier, lower tones
type kit with weird sounds and it works. For
this kind of thing, I recommend checking out
a drummer named Fred Below. YouTube
him with J.B. Lenoir–his shuffles are bad!
It’s just acoustic guitar and drums, and it’s
just so funky. Robben and I have messed
around with this as a duo, so when John
showed up, it all just fell into place.
RM: And, what about Michael McDonald?
TP: Robben suggested to Michael that he
check me out and told him about my studio.
Next thing I know, we’re doing some tracks
here, all creating together and it’s been
great. Michael is an amazing guy, so nice
and welcoming. And that voice–what can
I say. The songs are very cool and he’s
very open to ideas from Robben and me.
Hopefully, that’ll turn into a record and some
road work with him, which I’d love to see
happen. Michael’s very excited about it and
I’m just honored to have him here.
TP: Yeah, I did about four years of touring
with him, all over the world. Also did a
Jackie Chan soundtrack with him. Andy is
such an artistic cat, not only with music,
but art, literature and life in general. He’s
a great hang and has great stories, as you
can imagine.
RM: Life experiences with someone like that. I
know how appreciative you are with the artists
you’ve had the pleasure of working with.
TP: Man, if you can find any work where
you’re happy and doing your thing, and
you’re retaining a little bit of your dream,
you’re lucky. Try whenever possible to be
original and express your own voice, of
course within the parameters of the gig,
but try. I love this quote from Art Blakey:
“It’s not a race…it’s a parade.” I think of this
quote whenever someone’s judging me or
I’m judging myself. We’re all invited to this
parade and should bring our own flag to it.
We should march together and compliment
each other. Listen to as much variety as you
can and find out what sings to you. That’s
what all my favorite players have done
and what I try to do–still to this day. I’m still
learning, believe me.
RM: Let’s talk a bit about your home studio.
TP: It took about ten years for me to get it to
where it is now. I have a Pro Tools rig and
some vintage pre-amps, some good mics,
and together with a friend, we designed the
room so it had the proper balance between
warmth and live sound. We lifted the ceiling to
14 feet, floated the floor and have a couple of
iso booths in there. It’s a small room, but very
functional. The control room is separate and,
this is important, I have an engineer. I know
very basic stuff, but have an engineer on
hand for all my projects who knows Pro Tools
inside and out. It costs me more money and I
make less, but I can concentrate more on my
playing. It’s a good sounding room and I’m
getting more and more projects in there.
RM: Nice that you have such a good sounding
room, right at home. As we all know, home
studios are more common now.
TP: You know, Andy Summers once told me
that The Police did Ghost In The Machine in
someone’s home. They each were in separate
rooms and had cameras mounted, so they
could communicate. Not really a home studio,
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