Interview no. 195 - DigitalCommons@UTEP

University of Texas at El Paso
DigitalCommons@UTEP
Combined Interviews
Institute of Oral History
7-3-1975
Interview no. 195
Gaspar Cordero
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Interview with Gaspar Cordero by Richard Estrada, 1975, "Interview no. 195," Institute of Oral History, University of Texas at El Paso.
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AT EL FASO
OFTEXAS
UNIVERSITY
HISTORY
OFORAL
INSTITUTE
INTERVIEldEE:
GasparCordero
IEbIER:
I I{TERV
RichardEstrada
PROJECT:
Bicentennial
-
-
DATEOF INTERVIEIJ:
TERI'{S
OF USE:
TAPE$iO.:
195
{0T.:
T R AN S C R IIP
195
TRAI{SCRIBER:
T e re saJi ma rez
DATETRAI{SCRIBED:F e b r u a r y 6 .
,|976
SYIIOPSIS
OF IIITERViEI{EE:
BIOGRAPHICAL
N a t i v eE l P a s o a n
a n db u s i n e s s m a n .
SU['1|{ARY
OF II,ITERVIEI{:
Bi o g ra p h y;Me xi ca nA mer icansin E l P a s o ;e x p e r i e n c ew
s ith discriminat i o n ; t h e C a s j n oM e x i c a n ion E l Paso;wor k with the M exicanBoundar y
C ommi ssi oann d A S A R Ci n0 Mdxico;S o u t hE l P a s o ;C i u d a dJ u d r e zi n t h e
1 9 2 0s' a n d 1 9 3 0 ' s ;v i e w so n t h e B i c e n t e n n i a l ;f u t u r e o f M e x i c a n
Americans.
1 llq hours.
3 9p a q e s .
CORDERO
on July 3, 1975. The
T hi 's i n te rvi e w i s b e i n g held in El Paso,Texas^
s'ubJectof the i:ntervitewis Mr. Gas'parCordero,of El Paso.
I nterv'iewer
is. Rirhard Estrada.
Mr. Cgrdero,wherewere you born, sir?
C : I ' w a s b o rn i 'n E l P a so .
E: In what year?
C: I'n 1908.
E: C o u l dyo u te l l me so methingaboutyour par ents?
fvly'fathercamefrom Jime'nez,Chfhuahua. W motherwas from a NewMexico
fami'ly, whenNewMexicowas a Mexicanterritory,
before the Mexican-
Arneri'can
hlar.
Whatyear wasyour motherborn in?
Ri'gh.tnow I' couldn' t tel I you.
I ' d h a v et o l o o k u p t h e r e c o r d s , b u t I ' d
s:EJ'about 1885, thereabouts.
l-lowabout your father? Doyou knowm o r eo r l e s s ?
About the samegeneral time,
Did you camefrom a large or a small family?
0 n r y ' m o t h e r ' ss i d e , t h e r e w e r en u m e r o ussi s t e r s . B u t o n m y f a t h e r ' s
s id e , i t w a s a sma l l fa m ily. That I knowof, ther e wer e just four
b r o th e rs a n d si ste rs.
CORDERO
llowabout J/our hrothers and s'isters? t{ow'many'
dtd you have?
I'just
h a v e o n e .b r o t h e r .
E: Is. he s'ti'll ali've?
C: Yes, he i's.
E: Wh:ere
does he reside?
l - l ere si d e s i n E l P a so .
E : C o u l dyo u te l l u s so methingaboutyour fonm ativeyear s her e in E' l Pas o- y o u r g ro w tn gu p , yo u r elementar yschooling, that type of thing?
I 'w a s b o rn i n w h a t w e usedto call SecondW ar d. That' s on Fifth and
S a i n t V ra i n , to b e e xa ct. The fir st school that I went to was a k i nder g a rte n w h i ch w a s l o ca ted near Alam oSchool. ThenI went to the elenentar y
s'choolof Alamo. Thenwe movednorth, and I switchedto SunsetGrammar
S ch o o l , a n d e ve n tu a l l y I endedup in E' l PasoHigh School. It was the
o n l y h i g h s c h o o li n E l P a s oa t t h a t t i m e .
Ab o u tw h a t ye a r d i d yo u star t kinder gar ten?
I ' d s a y a b o u t1 9 1 3 .
T h a t w o u l d b e ri g h t i n the m iddle of the M exicanRevolution. W hatw as the
e th n i c co mp o si 'ti oonf the kinder gar tenclass in your fir st school?
Wew e re a l l Me xi ca nA mer icans.
Whatabout you teachers?
CORNERO
3,
C : T h e yw e re a l 'l A n g l o A m er icans' .
E: hlerethere anf parti:cular authority fi.gures; prr'ncipals or teachers that
y ou re ca l 1 e sp e cr'a l l ywell that had an influence on Jour ' life?
C : Y e s , I ' r e c a l l s s m et e a c h e r si n h i g h s c h o o lt h a t t a d m i r e db a i t i c u l a r l y .
Oneof themwas a mathematicsteacher; her namewas RebeccaGoldstein.
T hb nth e re w a sa Mrs. Fr ankSainer . Thenther e wasan Eng' lish
t e a ch e r b y th e n a meo f JeanieMcFur son
Fr ank, who knewthe English l ang u a g ej u st a b o u t a s w e ll as anybody. Shewas an author otoo.
E: D i d th e se p e o p l ei n fl u ence you in someway?
themas [be:t' ng]ver y capablete ac her s
N o t p a rti cu l a rl y, b u t I do r em ember
who l(newhow to teach..
E: D i d yo u e ve r h a vea n y MexicanAmer icanteacher sat all in high school ?
I r e m e m b ea r n a t i v e o f S p a i n , M r s , A l o n z o .S h et a u g h t S p a n i s h . B u t t h a t ' s
the only one.
I ' s th e re a n y e xp e ri e n cen or set of exper iences,that stick out prom i n e n tl y ri n yo u r mi n d w h ile you wer e gor ' ngto schoo' l? W asther e any thi ng
u n u su a lth a t h a p p e n eidn your schoolyear s?
No, not really.
r vervilr;nq una
s p"e[ti no i z
"*i
Y e s. [T h e rew e re ] n o outstandingevents.
CQRDERO
E: Di:dyou en;'oy.a happl youth.?
C:
Y e s , I ' g U e s : sa b - 3 U n
t orflal.
E: Whatwasyour"father dor'ngwhi'le you were going to school?
C: l'ly fatherW0sworki:ng
at the Elite Confecti'onary. That was an old-time
i'ce creamfactory that was quite famoushere in town in those days. He
pr ocessl' ng,with candymakingand i c e
w a s'th e fo re ma no f ma nufactur ing
creamrnakt:'ng.
E: Wasyour mCIthera hous'ew:i'fe
duri'ng these years?
C: Yes.
E: l t lr. C srd e ro ,d i 'd yi u e ver exper i' ence
any discr tm inationwhile you w er e
goi'nEto school?
C : I wo u l d h a veto sa y'th at a' ll of us exper ience[tfr is] to someeitent, Ves .
So memo reth a n o th e rs. For tunately, I don' t think that I was a vic ti m
of too muchdi'scri'mi'nati
on.
I don' t recal 1 any parti cul ar di sagreeabl
e
t n c i d e n t . B u t I c o u l d s e n s ei t a ' 1 1a r o u n d .
E : C o u l dy o u b e a l i t t l e
m o r es p e c i f i c a s t o h o wi t m a n i f e s t e di t s e l f ?
C : I ' t w a sn 't so me th i n gth a t you could say was anythinghar sh, but it w as
t h e re . Y o uco u l d se n seit in schoolwith your teacher s;you could s ee
i t i 'n th e p l a ce syo u w or kedin cer tain ways. Ne knewit was ther e. I'l l
g i ve yo u a n e xa mp l e . I was in co' l1egeat UTEP;it was then knownas
T e xa s'C o l l e g e
o f Mi n e s. Oneday a gr oupof us M exicanAmer icanstudents - -
CORDERO
t h e r e w e r ea b o u t f i v e o f u s - - w e r ew a l k i n gf r o m o n e b u i l d i n q t o t h e
nexto and the pfofes:ssrwas w'i'thus. Wewere talking awayin Spanish;
t ' lt w E s:n a tu ra l , ta l ki 'n g the old native language. He told us to cu t i t
o q t , t o n o t t a l k S p q n i ' sohn t h e c a m p u st;s t a l k E n g l i s h . T h a t ' s s o r t
of hurni.liati:ng. To rne[that's.] a forrn of preJudice.
E : Dl d yo u r fe l l o w -cl a s'sm ates
feel this way?
C : 0 h , ye s. l tl ea l 'l fe l t em bar r assed,
but ther e was nothing we could do
aDout i't.
E: Do you feel that qost of the professors felt this way?
C : N o.
A s a ma tte r"o f fa ct, I think we had som ever y fine pr ofesso r sat
t h a t ti 'me . A n d I d sn 't think this m anwas r eally consciousof the fac t
that he was b,ei'ngdrl'scriminatory.inhi's remark, becausehe was a very
fi'ne professor. l{e had somegood teachers. I remember
most of them
w'ith affecti'on.
E ' : W h a tki n d o f Jo b s d rl dyou hold in youth, while you wer e going to hi gh
s ch o o?l
I s'ta rti n g w o rki n gw h e nI was eight year s old, after school and dur i ng
vacations.. t workedat the departmentstores downtown.
Whatwouldyou do there?
I started sveepingfloors and washingthe windowsfor a departmentstore
o n Ove rl a n dS tre e t. My uncle used to wor k ther e as a salesm an. Later
I sta rte d to w o rk a t th e Popular . At that time I was about 14 year s ol d.
COR.DERO
I ' u s e dt o m a k e$ 5 . 0 0a W e e k .T h t sw q sa b s u ti n
.|923,'24,'25.
E: Di'dyou knsuMrn.Schwartz?
0 : 0h. yes:.
E : Whatdo you necall about Adolph sthwaitzt
C:
0f course, he tltasthe "0ld Man;" he was the boss.
He was rather a hard
b sss. I'w o u l d sa y th a t he was a ver y har d m anto wor k for .
d ays, i 'f yo u h a d to w sr k extr a time, ther e was' nopay for it.
d id th e w o rk a n d th a t's it.
In th os e
Youj us t
I guessit was a goodexper ience,though:
E: l{bs he a fair employ'er?
C: Yes'. I wou'lds:ays.o.
0f cours'e,vraEes
were very low at that time.
I: don't tht'nk that i't was fai'r to makean employeework three or four
hours.extra ti'me and not pay hlm for it;
that was not fair.
Aside from
that, they were pretty Eoodpeople.
Did everybodywsrk under those circumstances?
Y e s, mo st e ve rb o d y.
No matter what ethnic origin they were?
No ma tte r.
By the way, what kind of people would he employ? Did he employmostly
Mexicans?
Yes. I'wou'ld say that a good60%of the employees
of that store were
qORPRO
Mexi'canA$eri'can.'
E: Wh.qtkind of Jebs wsuld they work at?
C : Ca sh j esr a n d sa l e i rn e nm
, ostly.
E : Y o u rf a t h e r w q s ' i n h i ' s m a t u r ey e a r s ' d u r i n gt h e M e x i c a nR e v o l u t i o n ,w h i c h
l a s'te dfro m a b o u t l g l 0 to 1920. Bid you ever hear him talk about any of
h its e xp e ri 'e n cehs'e re o n the bor der , nelating to this Revolution?
C : T he o n l y th i 'n g I: kn o w 'is that one of the excur sionsthat the r ebel s took
i:nto Ju{nez, and they capturedJufreZ, W father was an employeeof the
g ove rn rn e nnt,a tu ra l l y on the opposing side. Theycaptur edhim and they
were goi'ngto executefti'm. But rqyaunt Franciscaand my mother intervened
w'i'th.Presi'dentMadero,vrhswas.in Ju{rez at that time; after the town had
been secured, he cameinto town.
T ha t mu st h a ve b e e ni n the Spr ing of 19' ll.
I t w a s o n e o f th o seye ans. I think it was the Vr ' lla for ces that took
Juirez.
T h a t ' s ' v e n yi n t e n e s t i n g . C o u l dy o u t e l l m ew h a t k i n d o f j o b y o u r f a t h e r
had for the federal government?
,tteworked a t th e C u stoms
Bui' lding.
I n C i u d a d.ludrezI
Tes', a'longwith other friends that time cameto r eside in El Paso,
f l ee i n g fro m th e R e vo l ution.
8
CORDERO
F.
D oyo u re me mb ethr e p ar ticular natur e of his iob?
C:
No, I don't.
E:
D 'i dyo u e ve r kn o wth e Ar gudlles fr om CiudadJudr ez?
C:
D o c t o rA r g u 61le s ? Y e s .
tr.
D i d y o u e v e r k n o wC a m i l o ?
C:
Y e s , I k n e wC a m j l o .
E:
W h e nd i d y o u m e e th i m ?
C:
W ew e r ef r i n e d s i n a b o u t
' | 9 3 9 ,' 3 0 , r 3 l - - d u r j n g
t h o s ey e a r s . W ew e r e
b o t h m e m b e rosf t h e s o c i a l c l u b h e r e i n E l P a s o ;l 4 e x i c a ns o c i e t y r e p r e s e n t e di n t h i s c l u b . I t w a sc a l l e d t h e C a s i n ol t l e x i c a n o .A t t h a t t i m e
i t w a sl o c a t e do n 0 r e g o nS t r e e t , w h e n eR o d g e r as n d B e l d i n gi s n o w
l o c a t e d . T h a t ' s w h e r ew e h a dt h e c l u b .
W e r et h e r e m a n yo f t h e s e c l u b s i n E l P a s o ?
T h a t w a s t h e p r i n c i p a l s o c i a l c l u b o f t h e t { e x j c a nc o m m u n ' iht ye r e i n
El Paso.
W h a tw a st h e p r i n c i p a l o b i e c t i v eo f t h i s c l u b ? W a sj t i u s t s o c i a l ,
o r d i d i t h a v ec i v i c d u t i e s ?
I t w a sj u s t f,o k e e p t h e f a m i l i e s t h a t c a m ef r o m M 6 x j c o t o g e t h e r a n d
i n c o n t a c t ; /Tt w a V a s o c i a l c l u b .
T h e r e m u s t h a v e b e e nm a n yf a m j l j e s t h a t f l e d t h e R e v o l u t i o n , t h e n .
CORDERO
C : Ver.ywell-knownfanrl'li'es,the hest fami.li'eshere in El Pasobelonged
t o th a t cl u b .
E: Wheredi:d the hest-knownfamili'es i'n El Fasoreside at that time?
C: I wouldsay mos:t0f thern[resided in]
SunsetHeiqhaa.
E : D om a n yo f t h e d e s c e n d a n tsst j l I l i v e t h e r e ?
C : Y e s . B y a l j m e a n st,e a .
o f t h o a ep e o p l e .
In facf, I couldrefer you to sorne
Doyo u kn o wl tr. A ce ve c io?
E: No, sir, I'don't.
C: Hi's [gnqnd] daughterits the present SunQueenof 1975.
E : Couldyou'namesomeother names.?
C : Yes'. Mr. Oscar Cams, whoresides on Hawthorne. Someof the old timers
ar',edead.
D i ' dy o u e v e r k n o wJ . G . H e r n d n d eoi f t h e l l e x i c a nc e n t r a l r a i l w a y s ?
0 - hv,e F yw e l l . M r . H e r n d n d e z s' so n , F e l i p e , i s a g o o df r i e n d o f m i n e .
Couldyou tell me moreabout Camilonig-u'ef
Tes? You say you first met
him in 1929?
About[tnat tr]mel 0f course,he wasolder than I'v{as,so there was.not
muchcontactbetween
us.
H e mu s.th a veb e e na t l e ast thir ty year s older than you.
t0
CORDERO
C : I d o n ' t k n o w ' h o w ' m uocl h
d e r , b u t i t w a s s o m ey e a r s ; e n o u g hto m akea
di'fference so that he belongedto one group and I'helonged to anot her .
I ' w a s" a j u n i p r a t th i t time, and he was a seni' or .
E : ldas,he a friend of your father?
C : I d o n rt b e l i e ves0 , n o .
E : 0 f co u rseh e h a d b e e nCustom Collector
s
at CiudadJua' r ezdur ing the
porfi'ri'ato.
C : 0 h , l th r'n Ryo u 're ta l ki ng abou:!Camilo' sfather .
Jr.
I knewCam iloAr gtel T es ,
T h e rew e re s'o me
m or eAr gUellesI knewat that tim e. 0r . nigihl l ea,
herein El Faso.
E : W a sh e a re l a ti 've o f th ese other people?
C : Ye s. l l e w a s a b ro th e r to Cami
lo' s father , I think.
E: D i'dC a rnoi l Jr. I i ve i n El Faso?
C: Yes, he did.
W he re a b o u its
n E l P a sodid he
' live?
S o me w h eire
n S u n s'eH
t e i ghts, but I don' t r ecall wher e. He was a good
f r i e n d o f th i 's'ma nth a t used to give Spanishclasses. Maybeyou knowhi m - Chivez.
Y e s , I ' v e h e a r do f h i m .
T om6 sC h i ve z. C a mi l oa nd Tomas were in the sameage group, maybeseven
.
GTR.DERO
il
or ei'Eht yeans,o'lder than I was.
E: Did you ever rneetth.eelder Aiqiettesi
C:
No.
E : Youwere goinE to ht':gh.
schoo'lin the early twenties, is that fight?
C:
Yes.. I' was i'n hi'gh s'ch.ooluntil 1928.
E : Wh a td i d yo u d o w h e nyou got out of h' iqhschool?
C : I ' w e n t to th e S ch o o 'lo f M i' nesIUTEP].
E : D i're ctl y o u t o f h tg h school?
C : Y e s . I e n r o l e d i n S e ptember
of 1928.
E: Whatwasyour major,?
ng.
C : Mi'ni'ngengi'neeri
E : l , tl a th
s a t mo st o f th e p eople' sm aior ?
t h a t ' s w h a t i t w a s - - a . m i n i n sgc h o o l .
At that time, yes, because
I t d i ' d n ' t o f f e r a n y o t h e r m a j o r sa t a l l ?
N o , i ' t d i ' d n ' t . I ' r e m e r n b eorr i ' g i ' n a 1 l yt h a t w e h a d o n l y f i v e b u i l d i n g s ,
w l ti chyo
' u ca n sti 'l l d i 'stinguishon the campus,becausethey' r e differ ent
f p o rnth e o th e rs. I'b e l i ve that ther e wer e over 300 studentswhenI w as
t h e re . B y th e w a y, my goodfr iend JosephFr iedkin, Am bassador
Fnie dk i n,
w as a cl a s'sma te
o f mi n e. He and I gr aduatedin 1932in the samemi ni ng c l as s .
CORDERO
12
E : Very'i'nteresti'ng. How'rnany
MexicanAmericanswere attending the School
of Minesat that time?
Out of th.ewltole enrollnent, absut 50.
E : Wouldi't be safe ts s'ay'that these were the MexicanAmericansof the
hi'gh:ers'sciul clas'sesi'n El Faso, with the MexicanAmeri.can
community.
C : Y o umi 'E h tsa y th a t th e y wer e upper r niddleclass. Ther ewer e somefor ei gn
s t ud e n ts, to o , fro m Md x ico.
E : M e xi 'ca nws o u l dco meu p her e to school?
Y e s. I'n fa ct, i 'n su r g r aduatingclass of ' 32, out of 8 gr aduates - - now
t h a t w a s th e w h .o l eg ra d uatingclass of 1g3zwith a m ining degr ee- - 2of
themwere from Mt{xico. Out of the B, five of us were MexicanAmericans.
Did the $choo'lof l4ines'haveany kind of reputation in those years for
mini'ngengineeri'ng?
f th i n k i t d i 'd e n Jo yg o odr eputation becausether e wer e studentshe r e
f r om se ve ra l p l a ce s. T her ewas one fr om the philippines, sever al lwer e
f r oml Mri xtco ;so f,w o u l d say that it had a fair r eputation.
Do you remember
what states in the interior these Mexicanstudents were
frsm?
No' nst from what states.
M exi coC i ty.
f rom.
But one of themhad beena mlTltary studerit fn
On ew a s from Sonor a. I don' t knowwhenethe other one w as
l3
CORDERO
of the moreprominentAnglo Americanshere in El
E : Di:dyou ever knsw.any.
Fass during these.yeqrg'. For i'ns.tanqe*di'd J/oue$er knowTomLea?
C: $'dtdn't
Rnow.
hiF well, but we went ts h.tlghschsol together.
E: h la sth i s T o mL e a , Jr.?
C : Y e s, th e a rti 'st.
t{e w er e not in the sam eclass, but we wer e in hi gh
s"choslat about the sametime.
E : Did you ever meet his father?
T o mL e a ? N o , I didn' t.
C : Ma ;mr.
E : Wh e nyo u g o t o u t o f th e Schoolof M inesin 1932,what did you do, s i r ?
C : 0 f co u rse ,S o u w su l d n 't r ecall the Depr ession;you wer en' t bor n ye t.
T h a t w a s.th e h e i 'g h to f the big Depr ession. I had a sheepskinthat s ai d
r f S c i e n c ei n M i n i n gE n g i e n e e r i n g .M y f i r s t i o b
that I'was a Bacheloo
w a sw i 'th a p i cR a n d sh ovelwith the W PA. Ybu' vehear dabout the WPA?
E: Ye s, th e Wo rksP ro g re ssAdm inistr ation.
C: Yes.
H o wa b o u tyo u r fe l l o w 9r aduates? W hatkind of wor k did they do?
C : Ab o u tth e sa me . [n fa ct, on either side of m e at that tim e wer e doc tor s ,
with year s of exper ience,wie' ldinga pick and s hov el
l aq ye rs, a n d e n g i 'n e e rs
E : Whatkind of wsrk wouldyou do with the tdPA?Wheredid you work?
CORDERO
C:
14
0 n d i f f e r e n t r o a d s , l i k e S c e n i cD r i v e ; a n d a r o u n dt h e S c h o o lo f M i n e s ,
b u i l d i n g t h e r o a da n dt h e o l d s t a d i u m .
E : Wh a tki n d o f w a g e sd i d y ou get?
C: Thirty dollars a month.
E : l ^l a si t a d e q u a te ?
C : At th a t ti me , i t w a s ver y adequate.
E : D i d yo u h a vea fa mi 'l yyet?
C: No.
I w a s n l tm a m r " eyde t .
E: H owo l d w e reyo u ?
C ; T w e n ty-fo u r.
E; H owl o n g d i d yo u w o rk with the W pA?
C ; Ab o u tsi x mo n th s,ma yb emor e. Thena goodfr iend of m ine, Alejandr o
L o p e zow h ow a sa me mb er
of one of the m or epr ominentfam ilies her e, got
' ! nea i o b w rl thth e Me xi canBoundar y
Comr n' ission.
Thel4exicanCom m is s i oner
a t th a t ti me , Mr. A rmando
SantaCr uz, wasm ar r ied to ltipez' s] aunt;
a n d th ro u g hth a t i n fl u e nce, I got a job with the M exicanBoundar Com
y
m i s s i on.
I ju mp e dfro m l a b o re r--getting thir ty dollar s a month- - toan engin eer - m a ki .n a
g h u n d re da n d e i qhty- five dollar s a monthover night.
f;
W o u l dyo u ch a ra cte ri zethis as extr aor dinar y?
Extra o rd i n a ry,ye s. I wasm akingmor e ihahthe bank pr esidentof E l pas o
15
CORDERO
[ N a ti o n a l B a n k], w h o e verit was at that tim e. This was the height
of the Depresstlon,
mind you. Everybodywas brokel
E: I-tow
did you fee'l about this move? Whatwere your thoughts?
C ; 0 h., I th o u g h t i t w a sa mir acle! And to me it was ver y good, becau s e
I sta rte d to g e t e xp e riencein the line of wor k I studied for .
I
w orke dth re e ye a rs fo r the MexicanBoundar Comm
y
ission.That wasa
v e ry, ve ry h a p p yti me for me, becausethe contacts [and] the fr iend s hi p
tlrat I made there were somethingI remember
with a great deal of
a ffe ctrl o n .
E : N ameso meMe xi ca n sth a t you met.
C : Mr, A rma n dS
o a n taC ru zwas then the comm issioner .Ingenier oAmor,
I-'ngeniero
Fernfndez MacGregor,
Vicente Rubjo,
R u b i osti l l
By the way, Vicente
w o rksfo r the Boundar Comm
y
ission.
Wfrereare the headquartersof the BoundaryCommission?
C ; T h e ya re a t th e p o rti o n of land that was tr aded whenthe Cham izal[ w as ]
4 g re e du p o n . A s yo u cross the fr ee br idge, over ther e by PR0NAFit's
,
o ve r o n ttL ero a d to th e left, and follows downthe r iver .
The buildi nqs
Are i n th a t a re a . It u sed to be downtown.
E: S o yo u w o rke dth e re fo r two year s, mdkinga hundr edand eighty dollar s
a m o n th .
C;
A h u n d re da n d e 'i g h t-fi ve: |eS.
l6
CORDERO
E : W e reyo u I i .vrl n gw i th yo ur par entsat th' is tim e?
C : Ye s, I w a s sttl l
l i vi 'n g wr lthm y m othen,
E: W h a tw a syo u r b ro th e r d oing at this tim e?
c:
M y b ro th e r w a sw o rki n gi n M dxicocity at that tim e. He had a j o b with
t h e Me xi ca nIrri g a tfo n com m ission.Thenhe came back and h e g o t a j o b w i t h
t h e B o u n d a ryC o mmi ssi on,
too, after I left.
[;
At th e sa mesa l a ry?
C : I d o n r t k n o w ;m o r eo r l e s s , I w o u l ds a i d .
E:
I s yo u r b ro th e r o l d e r o r youngerthan you?
C ; H ers fo u r ye a rs yo u n g e r.
A f t e r y o u i i n i s h e o w o r k i n qf o r t h e B o u n d a rc. yo m n i s s i o nl ,v h a td i d . y o ud o ?
I n 1 9 3 5 ,t h e r e w a sa p o ] i t i c a ' l c h a n g ei n M d x i c o ,a n d w e k n e wt h a t M r .
S a n t ac r u z w a sg o i n g t o b e n e p l a c e d . I k n e wt h a t I w o u l dp o s s i b ' l yb e
out of a iob; so I got a job with AmericaS
n m e l t i n ga n d R e f i n i n gC o m p a n y
i n S a nL u i s P o to s.f, Md xico. I star ted to wor k for themin Septem ber
of
.|935.
T h a t ' s w h e nI q o t m a r r i e d .
Whaneis your wife from?
F r o mE l P a so .
W ha ti s h e r fa mi l yrs b a ckgr ound?
l7
CORDERO
C : H e r f a m i l y r s n a m ei s T a l b o t .
E : S h e l sa n A n g l o ?
C : H e r f a t h e r w a sa n A m e r i c a no, r i g i n a l l y f r o m M a s s a c h u s e t t s[.H i s f a m i l y ]
settled in Georgetown,
Texas. Her father mamied a Mexicanwoman,so fmy
w i . f e ] i s h a lf I i e x i c a na n d h a lf A n qol .
E: D id yo u me e th e r h e re i n El Paso?
C: Yes.
E; D id h e r fa mi l y movedownhere?
C l Ye s, 6 q p fa th e r mo ve dfrom Geor getown,
Texas,to El Paso.
W h a tw a s th e n a tu re o f his bus' iness?
I th i n k h e w o rke dfo r the City, but I don' t knowwhat kind of a job he had.
E.E'So you
t,o
L u i s P o t o s fi n I 9 3 5 ?
Yes.
D oy o u r e c a l l i f t h e G u g g e n h e si m
dSARCO?
t i lsl o w n eA
Ci Yes,they did at that time.
E.i Di.dyou ever neet any of the Guggenheims?
Cg No, I di.dn't.
WEre.
any of themeVerpresenton the property?
t8
CORDERO
C: No. They never wene.
E: Did they work out of NewYork City?
C: Yes.
E : T e l l me so me th i n ga b o u t the pay scales. W er ethe AngloAmer icanem pl oy ees
a n d t h e M e x i c a ne m p l o y e epsa i d t h e s a m ej t t h e y O j Ot n e s a m ej o b ?
c:
T h a t's a n o th e rth i n g .
I went to wor k for Amer icansmelting for a
h u n d re da n d tw e n ty-fi ve dollar s a m onthas a junior eng' ineer . I wor k ed
tvttoyears for them in San Luis poto5r', and then changedto another company.
B u t w h e nI q u i t th e ma fter
two yeans, I was getting two hundr ed[d ol 1ar s
a mo n th ]. T h e i r w a g escales wer e not the sam e. The Amer icanengineer s
g o t a I i ttl e b i 't mo re :
f:
T h i s l e a d s me to w h a t h as alwaysbeenan inter esting point to m eoM r .
C ord e ro . D u ri n gth e ti m e you wer e gr owingup in El Paso,and dur ing the
t i m e yo u w e re i n Md xi cowor kingfor an Am er icanCompany
did the Angl os
p e rce i vea n y d i ffe re n ce betweena M exicanAm er icanand a M exican?
C i Y e g . W e - - l i k em y s e l f , d g r a d u a t eo f a n A m e r i c a n
s b h o o la n d h a v i n gl i v e d
h e re , a n d b e i n g a n A me r icancitizen- - wer e better r eceivedthan a n ati v e
M e xi ca ne n g i n e e rw o rki n gfor themin Nexico.
E: A n dye t, d o yo u th i n k that you, a s a M e x i c a nA m e r i c a nw
, e r ed i s c r i m i n a t e d
a g ai n st w h tl e yo u w e rewor kingdownther e?
('"
T L L e re
w a s a l i ttl e
d i ffe rence betweenthe AngloAm er icanengineera nd the
Ivlexi.can
Americanengrineer,as far as preferenceis concerned.
19
CORDERO
E:
t'lhatabout pay scales?
C:
l{e11, they got the best jobs, of course.
E : F o r i n sta n ce , i f th e re v{ er ean Anglo and a M exicanAmer icanwor kingat
the samejob, would they get the samewages?
C : I n m o n yi n s t a n c e s ,t h e y d i d n o t .
E : T he Me xi ca nA me ri ca nw ouldget a lesser wage?
C: Yes.
E : W o u l dth e re b e a n y d i ffe rence if, for instance, ther e wer e an Anglo
Ame ri ca n oa Me xi ca nA m er ican,and a Mexicannational wor kingat
m o reo r l e ss th e sa mej ob? W ouldther e be thr ee differ ent scales?
C : W e l l , t h e r e w o u l db e a t l e a s t t w o .
Did you ever knowof any case wherethere were three scales?
No, I really don't.
l { o ww o u l dyo u ch a ra cte r izeyour r elationship with ASARC0
in SanLui s
Po to si?
Ve ry g o o d . Wew e re ve ry well ieceived. [^Iewer e given a housein th e
s t a ff co mp o u n dyo
, u mr'ghtcall it, wher ethe staff lived.
fThey] wer e
t h e p re fe ra b l e h o u se s. That' s wher ethe super intendent,mine
a n d t h e e n g i n e e r sl i v e d .
I c a n ' t c o m p l a i na b o u tt h a t .
W e n toth e y re ce i ve du s quite well.
fo r em an,
E v e r y w h e rwee
20
CORDTRO
E:
Yo u sa i d th a t a co u p 'l eof year s befor e you had beenwor king in Ciu dad
J u a re z,fi a k.i .nag h u n d redand er lghty- fr lvedollar s a month. Downin
Sa nL u i s P o to si i *,
w er em akinga hundr edand twenty- five dollar s a
t R o n t hw i t h . { S A R CaOt t h e b e g i n n i n g . H o wd i d y o u f i n d l i v i n g i n S a nL u i s
Po to si i n re g a rd to th e cost of 1iving?
CI
0 h, mu chch e a p e r! E ve rythingwasmuchcheaperthan ther e. Now,yo u
n u st re a l i ze th a t w e a l s o had a r ent- fr ee house,and peopleto do y our
y a r d w o r ka n d t h i n g s l i k e t h a t .
[ W eh a d ] f r e e f u e l , f r e e f a c i t i t i e i .
S o t h a t c o u n t e d . B u t t h e c o s t o f l i v i n q i n S a nL u i s P o t o s f a t t h a t t i m e
Uas very, very low. Foodwas very, very cheap.
W pu l dyo u sa y th a t w i th the fainge benefits,that the wagethat you r ec ei v ed
up here on the border and the one you had downthere were almost on a
Pqri.tY?
w o u l ds a y t h a t t h e y w e r ea t l e a s t e q u a 1 ,i f n o t a t i t t t e
befter.
E: Whatwas the company
you movedto after ASARC0?
C : T f r eP o to si 'Mi n i n gC o rn Pany:
It{honan that company?
C:
I t w a sa n A me ri ca nCompany
headquarteredin S e a t t l e , W a s h i n g t o nc ,a l l e d
the
Mining Corrpany.
hlhydid you makethe move?
C:
I d i . d n ' t t h t n k I w a s g etting aheadfast enough. A very good friend of
CORDERO
21
mine whohad graduatedwith fie--ohe of ry classmates--was
then working
/
in Chihuahua. That wasmy part of it.
for^ Potosi Company
So we
d ectd e dto mo ven o rth . Also it was close to the bor der , and you get us ed
t o w h e re ve yo
r u tve l i ve d for so manyyear s.
E : Y o um e a ht h e f r o t o i f i ' l i n j n gC o m p a nwya Sb a S e di n C h i h u a h u a ?
C : T h em i n ew a s a b o u tl 5 m i l e s o u t s i d e o f C h i h u a h u[aC i t y ] .
I t w a sc a l l e d
s a n t a E u l a l i a . [ I t w a s ] a , v e r y f a m o u so l d m i n i n gc a m p . I t w a sr e a l l y
d i sco ve i e d b y th e S p a niar ds.
E : W tra w
t a s th e ma i n o re ?
C r L e a da n d 7 i n c.
E ; W h a tw a syo u r p a rti cu l a r job?
I w a sa n e n g i n e e r .
E : Yo umu st h a ven o ti ce d the conditr ' onsof the M ex' ican
miner s that wofk ed
t f Le re . D oyo u re ca l l h owm uchthey wer e being paid back in those d ay s ?
I' can't recall.
By todayl standardsn
it's
a very
'low
wage. It was
h a rd w o rk fo r th e m'r'n er - - though
the one that' s digging out the or e and doi ng
t h e l a b o r. T h a t's ve ry handwor k.
htould they cormutefrorn CiudadChithuahua
r or was there a campwhere they
'lived?
N o , t h e r e w q s " a ' l i t t ' l e v i ' l 1 a g en e a r b y ' - S a n tE
a u l a l i a ; a n d t h e m i n ew a sj u s t
22
CORDERO
o u t s ' i d eo f S q n t aE u l a l i a a b o u ta n i t e .
E: W.hatyear"s:were yqu working there?
C: I'wotlted thtre frorn
'|937
to 1946, whenthe war ended.
E: Youworkedthere qui'te a while.
C: Absut n'i'neyears.
E : L e t ' s E o b a c kt.o a h o u t1 9 ? 8 , ' 2 9 , ' 3 0 , t h e r e a b o u t s .D oy o u r e c a l l e v e r
heari:ng anyth.i:nS
about the Cristero Rebellion in Mdxico?
Yes. I had no di'rect experi'encewith them; we just used to read about
th.em. llowever,my brother got ssmewhat
i'nvolveddownthere in the state
o f Ja l i 'sco . l {Ew a sw o rkingfor the lr r igation Com m ission,
and he h ad to go
do s'omeft'eld worR--I thi'nk he was doi'ngsofie s^urveyi:ng.Jalisco was the
h.stbedof the Chster.os".Theywere anti-government,definitely.
He [my
Drother] wdnt thrsugh somevery tick'lish times downthere with them. In
fact, th.eyhad to cal'l out the Armysomettmes
to protect these surveying
crews, becausethey were always in danger oT getting shot.
E : D i d yo u r b ro th e r e ve r talk to you about the conflicts that ar ose betw een
the pegple and the government
over there?
C: Yes'. lle us'edts tel'l me about what he went through downthere.
He would
he moreacq'uai'nted
w'i"ththat than I'wsuld, cause he had someexperiences
downth:ere w.i'th the Fisteros.
C: Yourbi"othersti:ll li'ves i'n El Paso?
CORDERO
23
C: Yes.. l:teI ilves at 3000por.ten. He qlss worRed
for the Boundary
Commission
wh,enI. I ef t.
F: So, you were.at S q n taE Ulaliq'ti' ]l about 19- 46. W hatdid you do the n, s i r ?
C : I ' q u i 't mi 'n i n ga l l to g e ther , cam eback to El Faso, and star ted in the
h.ome
bui{ding business.
l{hy dtd you quit mi'ning?
I ' di d n ''t b e l i e ve th a t vvewer e being pai' d enoughmoneyfor our ser vi c es
at that time. Nott, th.ings did changeconsiderablywhenthe Mexican
government
sot't of nati'onalizedthe mini'nEtndustry and required that
pefsorne'li'n the companies
all management
would henceforthbe Mexican;
th.enthe sttuation changedconsiderab'ly. So someof these fel'lows that
I knewth.at were contemporary
with me are nowdirectors of big mining
o p e ra ti 'o n s'i 'nMd xi co . They' r emakinganyur herfreom $50,000to $80 ,000a
year.
Doyou regret h.avi'ng
Eotten out?
l l l el l , h i n d si g h t, o f co ur se, is better than for esight. NobodyeVer for es aw
t h a t t h j s i i t u a t i o n r , v o u ladr i S e . I f i t h a d n ' t a i - i S e n ,t h e y w o t l d s t i l l
wofkfh$ downthere for
be
fiiajrbe-UT;Su0
ilrnonth or somethinglike that.
Yo ume n ti 'o n enda tt'o n a l i zationor expr oppr ' Sion.Youwer e in SantaEul al i a
'|938,
in
i's that ri'ght?
Men the petroleumexprom+tioncameabout? No. The petro'leumexpropri.ation
cqneaboutwhenI' wasrsti"l'l workingin Ju#ez in the BoundaryCornmi
ssi on.
CORDIRO
E : T h a trs ri g h t.
24
Wh a tw e re the sentim ents[ttr at] wer e being expr ess edher e
on th.e border whenthat took place?
C : 0 f co u rse , A me ri ca nse ntimentswer edefinr itely anti- Car denas,par tic ul ar l y
t h e o r" l co mp a n i e s.A n dyou can see why. Theyr esented[that.]
E : D id yo u e ve r h e a r o i l m enher e in El pasotalk about that?
C:
N o, b e ca u seI w a s n o t a c quaintedwith any oil m en;but whatyou r ea d
a b o u t i n th e p a p e rsw a s defilnitely anti- M exicangover nment.
E : w ha t w e re th e se n ti me ntsof the Juar enseswhenthis cam eabout?
C:
0 f co u rse , th e se n ti me ntsin M 6xicower e all for C{ r denas.
E : W asth i s p a rti cu l a r'l y tr ue in Juaiez?
I b e l j e v es o r ! e s .
F.
W ha td i d yo u r i rn i i e d 'i a tfsupeniorat
s the Boundar Com
y
haVeto s ay
r ,r issjon
a b o u ti t ?
T h e yth o u g h t i t w a sa g oodmove. In fact as a gener a' rl ule all the
p e o p l ew e re fo r i t.
I remember
that spontaneously
they wouldtur n i n
c o l l e c t i o n s o f m o n e ya n d g o l d r i n g s and jewelry to the government
to he1p
p a;rfo r th e re p a ra ti o n s, to help pay the pr oper ties.
F.
W o u l dt h i s g o o n i n J u i r e z ?
C:
I s a wt h a t i n J u i r e z .
T h e yw o u l da ctu a l l y q i ve someof their per sonaljewelr y?
CORDERO
25
C: Yes.
F.
This is very interesting. t) bviouslyth' is s t i r r e d u p a 1 o t o f n a t i o n a l i s m
a n dp a t r i o t i s m .
C: That's correct.
E; So you say that they were ver y happyabout it?
C: Yes.
E : C a r d e n am
s u s th a veb e e nver y popular .
I th i n k [th e ] b e st th i ng cJr denasever did for Mdxicowas to say, ,,T hi s
i s o u r re so u rce . l n l eca n' t have it squander ed
any m or eand taken som ew her e
e l s e ."
M r . C o r d e r o v, ^ / h i l ye o u w e r ew o r k i n gi n t h e m i n i n g c o r , n r u n i t i e si n M d x i c o ,
d i d y o u e v e r s e e a n y e v i d e n c eo f s o c i a li s t a c t i v i t y o r l a b o r o r g a n iz i n g ?
y e s . 0 f c o u r s e ,l a b o r o r g a n i z i n gh a d b e e ng o i n g
o n e v e nb e f o r e t h a t , a n d
t h e re w a s
q u i te a fe rmentin the labor m ovement
in Mdxico,just the
s a mea s i t w a s i n th e U nited States. Som epr om inentfigur es at tha t ti m e- L o mb a rgToo l e ra n oa n d p eop' lelike that whower e involved in the labor
m o v e m e n t - - w ec r e
i t i c i z e d o f b e i n g c o m m u n i so tr i e n t e d . A c t u a l 1 y ,I d o n , t
t h in k th e y w e re i th e y w er e just labor or iented.
D i d a n y o f t h e s e p e o p l ee v e r v i s i t t h e m i n i n ga r e a s i n M d x i c o ?
T h e l a b o r l e a d e r sc o n s t a n t l yv i s i t e d t h e d i f f e r e n t sections of the c ountr y
t o t a l k t o l a b o r a n d g e t t h e mo r g a n i z e d .
26
CORDLRO
F.
Did you ever see any propaganda
or hearof any pr opaganda
in Melxic o
emanating
from the Socialist Movement
in the United States?
C: No, I didn't '
E : So you cameback to El Pasoi n
.|946
t o w o r k i n t h e h o m eb u i l d i n g i n d u s t r y .
Howdid you get started?
C : A c t u a l l y , a f n i e n d o f m i n e t h a t h a d g o n et o s c h o o lw i t h m e - - E m i l i oP e i n a d o - [and I] were hoth o u t of a job for the sam er eason.
E : W h i chw. a s?
c:
w e h a d q u i t t h e m i n i n gb u s i n e s s . s o w e m e t h e r e , b e i n g o u t o f j o b .
we
s ta rte d to th i n k a b o u t what we wer e going to do, lr lethoughtabout
l e a s i n g t h e o l d D u d l e yQ u a m yf r o m M r s . D u d l e y ;w e t h o u g h ta b o u tm a k i n g
s o m ec o n c r e t eb l o c k s , f o r b u i l d i n g p u r p o s e sai n d w e f i n a l l y d e c i d e do n
t h e i d e a o f b u i l d i n g h o u s e s . W ed i d n ' t h a v em u c hc a p i t a l - - w ed i d n ' t h a v e
any.
W a si t a p a rtn e rsh i pth at you had?
Yes.
S o y o u d e c i d e dt o g o i n t o t h e h o m e b u i l d i nbgu s i n e s sw i t h M r . p e i n a d o ?
Y e s , a n d h i s b r o t h e r s . T h e yo p e r a t e da f i l l i n g s t a t i o n a t t h a t t i m e ,
c a l l e d t h e A a n dA F i l l i n g S t a t i o n . S o w e p u t u p $ 3 , 0 0 0a p i e c e - - $ ] 2 , 0 0 0
c ap i ta 'l -ta n do rg a n i ze dthe l{ om eConstr uctionCompany.
A v e ry b a si c so u n d i n gn ame!
CORDERO
C:
27
v e q ve ry b a si c! [L a u ghter ] Nothingor igina' l dbout the nam el So w e
s ta rte d b u i l d i n g tw o h ouseson For t Boulevar d. Befor e they wer e fini s hed,
I d e ci d e dl rd b e tte r g o in businessfor m yse' lf,so I br oke up the
partnership wi.tn them. I went on my ownjtheycontinued.with the company.
0 f co u rse , th e y ma d ever y goodat it.
F.
We reth e re ma n yo th e r MexicanAmer icanbusinessm en
in this kind of ehter prise at that time?
I n h o m eb u i l d i n g ? N o . I n f a c t , a f t e r I l e f t , t h e y b o u g h ts o m ea c r e a g e
t o d e v e l o pi t - - a h o u s i n gd e v e l o p m e n
t l l e d A l t a m i r a . Y o us t i l l
ca
little
seethe
o l d h o u s e su p t h e r e o n T r o w b r i d g ae n d M o n t a n a - - o l do, l d p l a s t e r e d
h o u s e s ,S p a n i s hs t y 1 e . I b e l i e v e , t h a t w a st h e f i r s t h o u s i n gp r o j e c t a t
t h a t t i m e - - m o d e rhno u s i n gi n E 1 p a s o .
W o u l dyo u ch a ra cte ri zethe fir m that you and Mr . Peinadower e invol v ed
i n a s th e fi rst l t4 e xi can
Amer icanhousingconstr uctioncompany
in E l pas o?
l l J e 1 1i ,f n o t t h e f i r s t ,
i t w a ss u r e o n e o f t h e f i r s t .
[This was]right
a fte r th e l ^ Ia r--]9 4 6 --and
housingwas in gr eat demand.Nobodyhad ev er
g o n ei n t o h o u s i n go n a r e a l l y l a r g e s c a l e l i k e a b i g s u b - d i v i s i o n - - l i k e
b u y i n ga h u n d r e da c r e s a n d s u b - d i v i d i n gi t i n t o l o t s .
A l t a m i r as u b - d i v i s i o nw a st h e f i s r t o n e i n E l p a s o .
Didyou take part in this?
N o . I w a s a 1re a d y o u t of the company.
l , ' lh eyo
n u l e ft th i s p a rtner ship,what did you go to do?
I believethat
ZB
CORDERO
C: Fon a tine I went back i'nto mi'nipgfor m:rs,e]f. A friend of mine got a
prospect in Ch.i.huahua,
h"oldof a li.ttJe. {nanganese
ahd at that time the
wqs buyi.ngmangqnese.Sa we thought there might be
AmericqnSovqrnment
s€mefioney'in tltat, b.ut there wasn''t. So I got back into the homebuilding
hus'i'nessagai:n.
E: M.enyou were i'n Cht'h.uahua
in about 195CI,did you ever meet any of the
s:tate:auth.ori'ti'esdownthere--perhaps'the Governoror anything like that?
C: No. The only go\rernorthat I' knewwas Borunda;but he was Governorafter
1950. I had knownh.in in Jua'rezwhenhe was Mayorof JuJrez.
S' oyo u ca meb a ck to E l Fasoin
1i'ttle bi't.
.|950?
Let' s go off this subject for a
Nhat wenethe MexicanAmericanand Anglo Americanrelations
l i ke i :n th e ye a rs 1 9 4 5 -1950?How.would
you char acter izeit?
C: Flerein El Pass, the,ywere good.
E: To what do you attri'bute thfs?
C : P e rh g p sto th e ve ry.l a rge MexicanAm er icanpopulation. I don' t kno w
w he th e rth a t w o u l d h a veanything to do with or not, but we did havegood
r e l a t i o n s ' h i ' p s .[ t n a t ' s i n ] m y c a s e , n o w . P e r h a p sI ' v e b e e np a r t i c u l a r l y
f o r tu n a te i n a l l th i 's, but I' never exper ienceda- gr "eatam ountof d- j s c ai tT ti n ati 'o n . I co u l d s'e ei 't, yes' ; I' could sensett whenI wasyoungand I s aw
i t fi 'rs't h ? n d . B u t I'w asn' t r eally too m uchaffected by it.
E: Wsuldyou s.ay.thi's was'true bilmosf oT vo* frientsl
C: Yes, fiss.t of rly friends.
CORDERO
29
E : Di'dyou ever travel to $outh.,
El Fasoi'n those days? Di.dyou ever become
faniil i'ar wi'tt\ it?
I was,brcrnin South.E] Faso. That was the SecondWard.
E: Whatstreets were tltese?
C: Southof San Antoni'owas'the SecondWard.
E : T el 'l u s so me th i n E
a b o u t gr owingup in Ssuth El Faso. W er ether e gangs ?
C : N o t l i k e y o u w o u l dc h a r a c t e r i z et h e mt o d a y , n o . [ l t w a s ] j u s t l i k e k i d s
g etti 'n g to g e th .e r,a n d one guy going up against another , but r eal' ly nothi ng
vict'ous'. Mayb'e
rock thrswi'ngand things like that--nobodyever got hit.
E : D oJo u re e a 'l l a xJ i l l e g al activifieiz
Cl No, I 4on't j'ecsll-, whenI was a youngbgy qr y o u n gm a n ,a n y b i g a c t o f
v a n d a l i s mt,o o m u c hc r i m e , o r d r u g a d d i c t i o n .
E : Yo ud o n 't th i n k d ru g swer e on the str eet? I' t w a s n ' t p r e v a l e n t ?
C : 0 h , n o ! E ve ry'ki 'dl (n e r rthat dr ugsv{ er esom ethingto be avoided. It w as
a ta h o o th i 'n g , a b so 'l u tely. Nobodydar ed to even sm okemar ijuanaci gar ettes
r n u chl e. ss u se th e h a rd dr ugs!
E: t,tlasthi's true throughoutthe ti'meyou lived in El Pasoup until about
.|950?
Y e s, u p u n ti l th e g re a t bfor ldW ar . Dur ing the last twentyyear s is w heni t
r e a 1 1 y ' c a muep . ! { e d i ' d n ' t h a v et h a t a t a l l .
D o yo u th i 'n k mo st o f th e fami' lies that lived in SouthEl Pasoat that ti m e
w e re fa i 'rl y sta b l e fa milies?
30
CORDERO
C: Yes:,th-ey'were..[Th.ey.were.]
fefiijy sri'ented, par.ticularly the Mexican
qlwayg been th.at wa;1. A great anCIuntof stability.
ffie.rnipans;.TheJl''.Ve.
FAfiiliersrs"tqclttogethier.end helped each oth.er. Ki'ds had great respect
forn thieiv pqrentg and thEi'r elders..
E : T e l l n e a h o u t Oi u d a dJu{ r ez dur ing the ear ' ly 30' s or late 20' s. What
d o yo u re ca l l msst a h sut conditions'in Ci' udadJudr ez?
C: Juf,rezat that tirnewas.avery liveTy place. It wasa nuchbettef Citv
t h a n i t i s t o d a y . I n J u d r e z ,t o o , t h e r e w a sd e f i n i t e l y a n u o p e rr ; r i d d l e
c l a s's'a t th a t ti me . t remember
the ver y fam ousplaces in Juir ez- - l i k e
the Central Cafd, the 01d Tivolr'. All the famouscabarets and cafds
a t th a t ti me w e re sn th e l6th of Septem berlr, ' ke the Big Kid, The Mi nt,
C en tra l C a fd , T h e A ri zona, and all those places.
Ther ewas a sort of
a n a 'tmo s'p h eare
b o u t Ju i rez then; it had a lot of flavor ' like being a s or t
of cosmopo'l
i'tan pl ace.
E : I ' te rei h e i e a I o t o f v j s i tor s i n th: ci ly at that tir ne?
C:
0h, yesI
Lots,of touri'sts .
Wa sth e re mo revi ce th an ther e is n o w ? T h i n g sl i k e p r o s t i t u t i o n ?
I d o n 't th tn k th e re w a s as muchas there is today.
r ns alongThe I jne5 oT the cabaFets
Sp me s:to f th e e n te rta inr nent
Eati ng
p'laces, th.at ki:ndof thing?
casfnos.ithe rac6at the o'ld racetrack; Polo Games
at
Righ.t. Gambli:nE
th-e hlaterfi..lI 0ardens I rememberthose veny well .
They wer equite an
3l
CORDERO
event. In fqct" two {tends:of ,milne
at th.agtilte wereDoctorMonthoff
qnd OoetenGqgdu{.iyr
of the ffReri'can
polo team
fandJ tlt.eywerernerlbers
that rrse.dto go qvqr the.reand p:tay.agqi:nst
the fulexican
teamsevery
$nday. I't wqsquite an event. ftt wasJgay, andJuf,rezwasreal'ly
a niue placethen.
you chanacteri^ze
E : Hbw'weuld
relations between
CiudadJudrezand El Pasoat
that tirne?
C : Very'Eood.
E : lJour
wouldyou compane
themwtth relattons today?
T h e y ' r es ' t i ' l l v e r y g o o d , t b e ' l i e v e . S o n e t i m etsh e r e ' s a l i t t l e
friction
b u t a l l i n a l l I : t h . i n kt h a t w e h a v eg o o dr e l a t i o n s h i p s .
You were grow'ingup here in El Fasodur ing the EscobarRevolt. Ooy oJ
refterRber
anythi'ngabout that?
The EscobanRevoluti'onwas in 1929" ' I nemember
somethingabout it, what
I used to read i'n the papers,,but I' can' t r eca' ll too m uch.
D oyo u e ve r re ca l l i t m anifestingitself in CiudadJya/r ez?Do you
e Ve r re ca l l a n y e ve n ts that took p' lacer elating tO the Fevolutioni n
,lsa'rezt
C : Ye s. On ep a rti 'cu l a r e v ent com esto mind. Theyhad a battle in Ju i r ez .
E: Do you actual'ly remember
that?
C: Yes',becaus'e
a friend sf mine flandf l - - C o l . B i l l B a r t l e t t , a l s o a s c h o o l
3?
CORDERO
qere s:ti.'l'li'n mi'ni'ngschoolqnd Wgsneqkedacrossthe
mqteof fitine=.="
rivqr. dur"ingthe b-attle. l{e could seEth.eshoot{'ngout there in the
s:tree,tsb-etween
thE rehel forces and the goyenmenf
forces. Weactually
sawsoldiers b},ings:hotand somerebels beings.hot.
E: Whre,didyoq sneak acros.s.?
C: t{el] , we just walkedacros'sthe ri'ver at Stanton Street.
E: You Jus't went across.the bridqei
C : Ye s. t{e w E l h e da l 'l a roundthe 16th of Septem ber.
hlewere dodging
anoUndfrom door'=to=^d0or,
Watchfngall this; and ther e was a quite a l o t !
E : Y o uc o u l d h a v eg o t t e n k i l l e d !
C : Yes:!
Di'dyou see anyonekil'led?
ldesaw'sometwo or thnee rebels laying out there i,n the street.
Andyou
c o u l d h e a r th e s.h o sti nEgoing on.
l l owd i d th e p p l e o f th e city fee' l about this r ebellr ion?
I do n 't re ca l l w h a t th e attitude was in JuJr ez at that tfm e. 0f co ur s e
you know'it was squas-hed
pretty qUickly.
Dtd any of the s-h.otsstray across the ri'ver?
I ttti n k th e y d i 'd . Ma ybel' ve got my r evo' lutionsmixedup, but I r e c al ]
t h at a t sn e ti 'rn eF t. B l iss called out a detachm ent
and set up a can onup
COROERO
33
here on higtt tit"ound="=.1
think i't was:on ['1t. Frankl'tnar Rim Road---because
cqnonshets:were reaclli:ngtnto El Faso. Nottt don't knowif that was the
Escobar.
revolution or if that wes befqre.
E:
I.t rls for certai,n thqt in lglg Fanch.o
Villa atLackedCiudad Ju{rez, and
there were Afrneni'can
soldiers that actually crossedthe bridge.
th:at's th.e one I''m [tfri'nt<ingabout].
C: Fer.haps
about that battle?
F: That' s' very i'nterestr'nE. Whatelse do you remember
Wereany'of the ctlvi'li'ans taking par t i' n i' t?
C: No.
E : J u st re b e 'l sa n d ssl d i 'e ns?
C: YEs.
tr.
L e tr's g o b a ck to E l F a soin 1950,whenyou camebackand star ted an other
E o a t b u si n e ss. Wh a td id you do then?
C : t sta tte d to b u i l d so mehom es.
E : h l asth i s a o n e -ma o
n p e r ation?
C: Yes.
E: l{ho helpedyou build these homes?
C : I ' h i re d su b -co n tra cto r sto do ever ything. I ' d b u y l o t s a n d t h e n g e t a
p ' l a n , d ra w i 't u p , d h d butld for sale.
E: llhve you beendoi'ngthis ever since?
34
CORDTRO
now.
C : Ye s. 0 f co u rse , Ii 'm se .m i- r eti' r ed
E : D i d y o u e v e r k n s wa n y p r o r n i n e nEt l p a s o a n si n t h e 5 c ' a ? F o i J n s l a n c e ,
did you knowFred HerveYback then?
C : Yes. I: kneu hirn i'n h.i'ghschool, and I'alw
h.i's:ftrst
knewhim whenhe star ted
0asis on MontanawhereGi11es[ie'sis now.
E : Whatdit you th.i'nkof him?
C:
t th.i'nk he rnadea fine maJror. Fred Hervey is a very c a p a b l eb u s i n e s s m a n ,
as you ltell llnow. I' think that both his terms as a mayorwere very good.
Whowere the rnorepnomi'nentMexi'canAmert'cansin El P a s oi n t h e e a r l y
1 9 5 0 .'s?
C : I l c a n r e c a l l E r n i : eF o n c e . I ' t h i n k h e w a sa n A l d e r m a n .
E: Wh a tw a s h i 's b u si n e ss?
tle had a spaghettifactory.
Tellez.
Raymond
0f course, I remember
H owl o n g d i d yo u kn o wT dllez?
C : t kn e wh i m si n ce h e w a s CountyCler k. 0f cour se, f' ve knowhim ev er s i nc e.
Are you frlends with htm?
N o t cl o se fri e n d s, h u t f would consider that he was a fr iend.
E : Wh a tw a s h i 's o ccu p a ti onback in the ear ly fl' fties?
C : l f e'd j u st co meh a ck fro m the Air For ce, and I believe he ser vedin tqel i c oC i ty
CORDERO
35
a $ a l i a i so n o ffj ce r. fthenhe cane back to E' l Pqsoafter beinf disc har ged,
he ra n fo r C o u n ty.C 'l e rand
k won.
E: Canyou fientipn solneoth-er promi'nentSpanilshsurnamesin El Pasoat that
tirne?
C : N o t sf h a n d .
E : hfouldyou think. th.at th.ey were the most prominent at t h a t t i m e ?
C : htell, they were someof the most prominent,yes.
I remember
Mr. Sim/n
Si'lva.
Mat wqs hi's.occupati'sn?
lle was.a husines:sInan.t{e had a very big handwarestor e on SouthEl Pas o
St re e t. T h e nh e h a d a wholesalehouse- - clothing,n o t i o n s r w e d r i n ga p p a r e l - a n d se ve ra l a rti :cle s.
W a sth e re a n y p a rti cu l a r year i' n whichyour homebusinessr eachedan
optitnumof pnofi't?
I would say that my best years were between'65 and
D oyo u th .i n k th i " s i s g e ner ally tr ue of' ' the hom econstr uctionindust r y ?
I ' b e l l e ve th a t [i .t w a s] as a gener alr u' le. Builder s as a gener a' rl ul e
werne
malti.ngmore money.
M r . C o n d e ro ,I:'d l t'ke to msveinto the fina' l phaseof the inter view now .
Yntl h.avebeenreadilng,no doubt, about the Br.centennjalthat,s comjngup.
36
CORDERO
C:
Yes.
E:
l l l h a ta re yo u r fe e l i n g s with r egar d to your identity with the BicentenAm er ic an
ni a l ? Wh a td o e s th e Bicentennialmeanto you as a lt{ exican
l i v i n g i n t h e U n i t e dS t a t e s i n 1 9 7 5 ?
C:
A s yo u kn o w ,th e B i centennialr efer s to the 200th Anniver sar yof the
f o u n d i n go f t h e A m e r i c a rne p u b l i c . A s s u c h , j t r e a l l y i s n ' t t o o c l o s e
to the Mexican
A m e r i c a ni n h a b i t a n t s ,n a t u r a l l y . H o w e v e ra, s a c e l e b r a t i o n
o f t h e f o u n d i n go f a c o u n t r y , I t h i n k i t ' s t e r r i f i c l
, e
B y a 1 l m e a n sw
e e l j v e h e r ea n d t h i s i s o u r c o u n t r y - s h o u l dc e l e b r a t ei t , b e c a u s w
we're citizens.
E:
Y o uh a v ev e r y p o s j t i v e f e e l i n g s a b o u t i t ?
C:
t , b e c a u s ei t ' s s o m e t h i n g
Y e s . I j u s t h o p et h e y d o n ' t c o m m e r c i a l i zi e
t h a t s h o u l db e v e r y s e r i o u s . I t h a s n o t h i n gt o d o w i t h c o m m e r c i a l i z a tion of any sort.
E:
I t s h o u l dbe som ethingthat comesfr om the hear t.
D oy o u t h i n k t h e M e x i c a nA m e r i c a cn o m m u n i tsyh o u l dt a k e a c t i v e p a r t i n
the celebration?
C:
I b e l i e v e t h e y s h o u l d ,y e s .
E:
I,{h e yo
n u h e a r th e n a m esW ashington,
Adams,Jeffer son, and Hamilton,
h o wd o y o u i d e n t i f y w i t h t h e s e p e o p l e ? l ^ l h adt o y o u t h i n k a b o u t t h o s e
i n d i v ' i d u asl?
C:
I i d e n t i f y w i t h a l 1 g n e a tm e n ,n o m a t t e rw h e r et h e y c a m ef r o m . I n t h e
American
R e v o l u t i o na g a i n s t E n g l a n d ,I i d e n t i f y m y s e l f v e r y c l o s e " l yw i t h
s u c hp e o pel a s S a m u e
Ald a m sP, a t r i c k H e n r ya, n d B e n j a m j nF r a n kiln .
These
CORDERO
37
werethe peop'leth.atArousedthe peopleto reb"e'lagai.ns.t
England. In
oth-erwerds,,th-ey'wene
th-eradtcals of th.eir ti.ne, hut they are great
we.l.e
educatedme.n,too.
{nen. Th"ey.
E: So f1u adrnj
re them?
C: t do.
E: Whenyou hear the term "forefathers" applied to themndo you consider
themyour forefathers?
C: Nst mi'ne. I cannot see themas rnyforefathers becauseI am not an Anglo
Ame ri ca n . Ma yb ea n A n gloAmer icandoes.n' tunder stand
what I' m say i ng ,
but there's t!'lo di'fferent ethni'cs hereinvolved, But I do admire themas
t h e fo u n d e rso f a co u n tr y and shakingoff the contr ol of a tyr anical ,
a u to cra ti c ki n E . T h a t's why I adm ir ethem.
E: Haveyou ever studi.edany MexicanHistory?
C : V e ry'l 'i ttl e ' u n fo rtu n a tely. This is what happensto most of us who
grow up sn the border. llle never get too muchof a chanceto study Mexican
Iti'story .
E : H aveyo u e ve r d e ve l o p e dany conceptionsabout the figur es of the M ex i c an
R evo 'l u ti o n ?S a y V i 1 1 a , Mader o- - what
ar e your thoughtson peopielik e
t h a t?
C : Ye s. F o r e xa rn p l eI, th i nk that
one of the gr eat patr iots of Mdxi c o
l t a s B e n i 'to;u # e z a n d Mor elos;and in later times Fr anciscoI. Mader o,
w h ow a s ' a v e r y w e l l e d u c a t e d
m a no f h i g h i d e a ' l s . T h a t ' s w h y h e d i d n ' t l i v e
1 o n g . T h e r e s t o f t h e p a c k k i l l e d hj m . T h eJ a c k a l H u e r t a a s s a s s i n a t e . d - T j m .
3B
CORDERO
H e w a sa g r e a t m a n ,i n m . ye s t j m a t i o n .
w,i'th.th-eAnglo Americanpatriots of
E: Wouldyou sa;r'you identi'fy.as-rnuch.
thie knerilcan Revo'luti'onas'you do wt'th.B.eni'toJuirez?
C: Yes, absolutely'.
E: lrlou]dyou say you itentify
w'ith them to an equat.extent?
C: Yes.
M dxico? Doyou m ani tai n
n
E : I { h a t ki 'n do f a re l a ti u nshi' pdo you m ai' ntai' with
any'polrltical affi']i'ation with Mdxrlco?
C: Ns.
E : H o ww o u l dy o u c h a r a c t e r i z ey o u r c u l t u r a l a i f i t i a t i o n .
C : D e fi n i tb try I' fe e l a c1 s s' eaffinity with M 6xico.
N h a td o e sy g u r r v i f e t h i n k a b o u ta n y c u l t u i a l c o n i e p t i o n as h e r n i q h th a v er v i t h
M ri xi co ? D o e ssh e th tn k like you do?
S h e 's o ri e n te d i n th a t r espect.
Is your wife bi'lingual?
Yes'. She's defi'ni'tAly'Mexi'can
ori'ented. You see, her father
Ameri'can
dt'edwltens'hewas.very'youngrso her motherbrought her up and had a
gr"eati'nf'luenceon her. Most of her frtends i.n childhoodwere Mexican
funeritans.
CORDERO
E:
39
T h a t ' s v e r y i n t e r e s t i n q . h l h a td o y o u t h i n k a b o u t t h e r o j e o f t h e
Me xi ca nA me ri ca ni n E l Pasoin the futur e- - within the next ten yea r s ?
D oy o u t h i n k t h e r e i s g o i n g t o b e a n y s u b s t a n t i a li n c r e a s ei n t h a t r o l e
o r d o y o u t h i n k t h i n q s w i l l r e m a i nt h e s a m e ?
L:
I l o o k fo r mo rei mp ro vem ent
and mor ebenefits to the M exicanAmeri c an
p o p u l a ti o n oa n d a q re ater r ole played by the MexicanAmer icans
in the
a f f a i r s o f t h e c i t y a n d t h e c o u n t r ya s a w h o l e . L i t t l e b y l i t t l e ,
it
h a s to co me . T h e re 's a gr eat am ountof potential talent ther e. You s ee
' i t i n t h e s c h o o l s . M a n yo f t h e V a l e d i c t o r i a n sa n d S a l u t a t o r i a n sa r e
Mexican
A m e r i c a n s .T h e t a l e n t i s t h e r e .
F.
S o yo u r fe e l i n q s a re p osttive about the futur e?
A b s oul t e 1 y .
E:
M r . C o r d e r olro u ' v e b e e nv e r y g r a c i o u sa n d v e r y i n f o r m a t i v e ,a n d I t h a n k
y o u fo r th e i n te rvi e w .